1 BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF EQUALIZATION 2 450 N STREET 3 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 4 5 6 7 8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 9 DECEMBER 14, 2016 10 11 12 13 ITEM P 14 OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE MATTERS 15 ITEM P1.2 16 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S REPORT 17 2. VITA PROGRAM 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Reported by: Jillian Sumner 26 CSR No. 13619 27 Kathleen Skidgel 28 CSR No. 9039 1 1 P R E S E N T 2 For the Board of Equalization: Fiona Ma, CPA 3 Chairwoman 4 Diane L. Harkey Vice Chair 5 Jerome E. Horton 6 Member 7 Sen. George Runner (Ret.) Member 8 Betty T. Yee 9 State Controller 10 Joann Richmond Chief 11 Board Proceedings Division 12 13 For Board of 14 Equalization Staff: Brenda Fleming Acting Chief Deputy 15 Director 16 David Gau Executive Director 17 18 ---oOo--- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 2 1 450 N STREET 2 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 3 DECEMBER 14, 2016 4 ---oOo--- 5 MS. RICHMOND: Our next item to be taken up 6 on today's agenda is Item P Other Administrative 7 Matters, Item P1.2 VITA Program. 8 MS. MA: Okay, Mr. Gau. 9 MR. GAU: Good morning, Honorable 10 Chairwoman and Members. I'm David Gau, Executive 11 Director. With me today is Ms. Brenda Fleming, 12 she's the acting Chief Deputy Director. 13 Today we're here presenting you the issue 14 paper on the Voluntary Income Tax Assistance 15 program, VITA policy. 16 Also, we are, um -- it's a program, as 17 you're aware, sponsored by the Internal Revenue 18 Service that offers free tax help to people who make 19 $50,000 -- $4,000 a year or less, that are either 20 disabled and/or demitted English proficiency. 21 The Board has supported VITA for many 22 years. In the past, we authorized staff to use 23 state time for training, volunteering for tax 24 preparation services, promoting participation in 25 VITA, and to use state funds for associated 26 expenses. 27 The Boards's Legal Department has opined 28 that the BOE's employee participation in VITA pro -- 3 1 programs does not violate the prohibition against 2 the government making a gift of public funds, it 3 does not violate incompatible activity laws, and is 4 a justified use of state resources. 5 The purpose of this issue paper is to 6 obtain Board adoption of a VITA policy, to ensure 7 that the BOE uses resources consistent with the 8 Board's state of priorities and legal 9 requirements. 10 There are four alternatives in the, uh -- 11 presented in the issue paper. And the Board may 12 decide to adopt one of these alternatives, or they 13 may consider -- they may consider adopting a hybrid 14 of these alternatives. 15 So I'll quickly run through the 16 alternatives. 17 Under Alternative 1, the first alternative, 18 the BOE continues to participate in VITA using state 19 time and resources. But the Board would authorize 20 the Executive Director, myself, to establish a 21 budget for staff time and resources, including 22 event-related staff time; mailing, postage and 23 printing. And that would be subject to your 24 approval. 25 And I should note that that approval, 26 uh -- if the Board adopted that alternative, the 27 VITA budget would be included in the Education & 28 Outreach Plan budget, which will be presented to you 4 1 at the January Board Meeting. 2 Okay. Under Alternative 2, under this -- 3 BOE's role in VITA is, uh, to allow -- allow 4 promoting employee participation. 5 So we would promote the participation and 6 use of state time to part -- for employees to 7 participate in training. 8 Employees would use their own time to 9 prepare tax returns at events sponsored by other 10 agencies and organizations. And the Board would not 11 use state funds on event-related staff time, 12 mailing, postage, printing, or travel. 13 Under the Third Alternative, the BOE's role 14 in VITA would only be, uh, to promote the events, 15 uh -- employee participation. Excuse me. 16 And, again, uh, the participation would be 17 on the employee's own personal time at these events 18 sponsored by other agencies and organization, 19 without the use of state funds on state time, 20 mailing, postage, printing and travel. 21 And then, finally, under the fourth 22 alternative, the Board could continue and not adopt 23 a formal policy. 24 So in closing, staff's requesting that the 25 Board consider adopting one of the four 26 alternatives, or, uh, a hybrid of the issue-paper 27 alternatives. 28 Brenda and I are available for any 5 1 questions. 2 MS. MA: Mr. Runner. 3 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, just a couple of, um, 4 questions, I guess. 5 You know, I think -- I guess the challenge 6 that we have here is -- is, um -- um, you know, we 7 have a good and a vital program. And I guess the 8 issue is how do we create some parameters around 9 what we believe would be our proper involvement in 10 our proper assignment of resources? 11 And I think that's the -- that's kind of 12 the -- the -- the challenge that we have as we're 13 trying to -- at least for me as I'm getting my arms 14 around this. 15 You know, quite frankly, what -- I -- I was 16 under the impression, um, you know -- ultimately 17 will prove to be wrong under my impression -- is 18 that we basically had a policy. And the policy that 19 I thought was in place was the fact that we would 20 allow -- I mean, I would routinely go out and I 21 would recruit volunteers out of -- out of our 22 district staff -- 23 MS. HARKEY: Mm-hm. 24 MR. RUNNER: -- who would then go and, um, 25 decide that they would then like to participate in 26 VITA programs. 27 And it was my understanding that, then, 28 there's training, then, was allowed to be done on 6 1 staff time -- or on BOE time. 2 The rationale for that is is, I think, is 3 solid. And that is that even though we are not 4 income tax related agency, in the sense of what our 5 auditors are doing, it does indeed give our -- our 6 -- our staff -- field staff some experience -- 7 MS. FLEMING: Correct. 8 MR. RUNNER: -- in regards to income tax 9 issues and understanding income tax, which then 10 helps benefit them in doing their jobs that they do 11 for us at the BOE. 12 So I guess I felt that was still within the 13 parameters, properly, of what it is that our BOE 14 staff would be doing, and the resources that would 15 be used. 16 So I thought that's kind of how we were 17 operating. Actually, through this discussion and 18 through this analysis, all of a sudden I found out 19 that even in -- in one of my district offices, we 20 were actually going beyond that, and we were 21 actually -- we were actually, um, sending folks, at 22 the request of a group, to actually go out and -- 23 and during BOE staff time -- to actually complete 24 income tax returns. Which, again, I did -- was just 25 not aware of until I got this report. 26 So then my question was, how did -- where 27 did that come from? How did we begin doing that? 28 And I was pointed to a memo that was done in 7 1 February 4th, 2015, which then, you know, um, was 2 distributed to managers and supervisors, which then 3 laid out that as the policy, that indeed they could 4 do that. 5 Now, I got to tell you, I looked at my 6 staff, we were never aware of this. I don't 7 remember it being on three-day review. I don't 8 remember any of that actually happening in regards 9 to an awareness. 10 So, I think that's where all of the sudden 11 I got in this dilemma where my -- my managers and 12 staff were aware of a policy, and they were 13 rightfully implementing the right policy, I just 14 wasn't aware of the policy. In fact, I thought the 15 policy was different. 16 MS. FLEMING: Okay. 17 MR. RUNNER: So I guess that's why I think 18 this is an important discussion for us to come to in 19 some conclusion so that we can all get on the same 20 page. Because I am fine, again, with what I thought 21 was the other kind of process. Which was, we 22 would -- we would -- we would recruit -- recruit 23 volunteers. We would even train them on BOE time. 24 Then we would then make available to them where it 25 is that these voluntary -- these -- these -- these 26 services are taking place. They would then serv -- 27 volunteer in serving those -- in those capacities. 28 And, in fact, I think at times -- and I 8 1 would certainly have no issues with it -- I think 2 any kind of incidental expenses that we would have; 3 for instance, I know I did, um, some public 4 information announcements -- 5 MS. FLEMING: Uh-huh. 6 MR. RUNNER: -- that we used the, uh -- 7 that we used the media services for. We recorded 8 them, I think, both in radio and TV. And then -- 9 you know, with our services here. And then that 10 went out then to the various communities to make 11 them aware of that. 12 But I guess I would call that almost 13 incidental cost, not certainly anything that would 14 deal with mailings or invitations or things like 15 that. 16 So I'm kind of comfortable with that as 17 a -- as a level of engagement. Like I said, I -- I 18 was really caught off guard by the -- by the memo. 19 Which, again, maybe we all missed it at my office. 20 But, again, I didn't see anything. And I think I 21 asked the staff if they recall any of this going out 22 on a three-day review, and I don't think there's any 23 evidence that it ever did; it was just an 24 adjustment. 25 So anyhow, that's, uh -- that's kind of 26 where I am on this issue. I think it's an 27 appropriate program; I think it's a good program. 28 But I think we also have to be measured in what we 9 1 use our resources for. Because, I mean, the bottom 2 line is, whenever our folks are out doing income tax 3 returns, that means they're not doing BOE sales tax 4 returns. And so to me, that is just a shift of 5 responsibility from our core -- what I think is our 6 core responsibility. 7 MS. MA: Ms. Yee. 8 MS. YEE: Thank you, Chairwoman Ma. 9 I'm glad we're having this conversation. 10 And I think just jumping off of the point Mr. Runner 11 just made, um, with respect to the appropriate and 12 efficient use of BOE resources. 13 I hope we can come to a conclusion about 14 what it is that we might want to encourage our 15 employees to be involved in relative to VITA, but 16 also be mindful that we do have core functions that 17 our employees are to be engaged in as well. 18 I am concerned about the expenditures, and, 19 obviously, the revenue opportunity loss as we direct 20 staff to this program. It is an income tax 21 assistance program. I think the Members, all of us 22 here, have been very -- have made this program a 23 priority with respect to our own public outreach, 24 which I think is appropriate. 25 But with respect to BOE staff, certainly 26 don't want to discourage them from becoming trained 27 and certified and being VITA volunteers, but it does 28 take away their involvement with their core -- core 10 1 responsibilities here at the Board. 2 I guess what I'm going to look at is a way 3 that, um, we can have limited resources for VITA 4 that would be incorporated as part of the education 5 outreach budget. Um, I think probably having some 6 equal allocation of dollars for VITA-related 7 activities for each of the districts makes sense. 8 And obviously districts have different needs. 9 But as I've been working with the VITA 10 program in my current capacity as Controller, 11 statewide, I do have to say that the need really is 12 for volunteers in already established sites, whether 13 they be United Way sites, whether they be other 14 grant-funded sites, whether they be AARP sites, um, 15 they are not 100 percent up and running because of 16 volunteer capacity -- or lack of volunteer capacity. 17 So I would hope that when we encourage our 18 employees to become trained and certified, that, um, 19 we also help direct them to where they could be of 20 service within each of our districts. 21 With respect to the training, it is a 22 fairly lengthy online training process. I would 23 hope that the extent of our devoting resources to 24 training would be just at the initial end of the 25 process, um, maybe around for about eight hours of 26 training to just get the employees oriented to what 27 the training is about. But the remainder is on 28 their time. 11 1 And then looking at not allowing for time 2 for employees to actually prepare returns. That is 3 to be done on a purely volunteer level on the 4 employee's own time. And I say this because I think 5 this will really help direct resources to where 6 they're needed. 7 As I said, there are hundreds of VITA sites 8 that exist every tax-filing season. But many are 9 not even able to offer regular hours, because of the 10 lack of sustained volunteer capacity. And I think 11 that's where we can actually help create more bang 12 for the buck relative to the assets we have here 13 through our employees to make the program even more 14 successful. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. HORTON: Madam Chair. 17 MS. MA: Mr. Horton. 18 MR. HORTON: Thank you, Members. 19 In, uh -- I'm actually surprised to hear 20 that employees are going out and preparing tax 21 returns on their own time -- I mean, on state time. 22 It was my understanding that that was not the case. 23 So that's new information to me. 24 In District 3, in our district, the 25 employees only receive training, and they volunteer 26 on their own personal time to prepare tax returns. 27 Our program is a little more mature than 28 some of the others for the Board of Equalization, by 12 1 virtue that we have relationships with the local 2 universities who will train their students and 3 prepare them for VITA. Therefore, the core values 4 of the Board of Equalization may be more beneficial 5 in our district in that in the VITA program we have 6 a pretty extensive recruitment effort where 7 somewhere around 560 students are trained on sales 8 and use tax, income tax and so forth, throughout the 9 year. And then they receive college credits in 10 order to participate in VITA, and then they assist 11 the taxpayer -- in our case some 15,000 taxpayers -- 12 to not only recapture somewhere around $18 million 13 back into the state coffers from federal funds, but 14 they also assist them in filing their use tax, which 15 is, by our estimates, is somewhere around $156,000, 16 that as a result of this effort and this program is 17 being recaptured for the state of California. 18 So you have BOE employees who are 19 volunteering on their own time; you now have 20 students who have been trained and indoctrinated 21 into the Board of Equalization rules and policies 22 and law as well, who are participating in the filing 23 of what is our core value, which is use tax. 24 Some time ago we received a report that 25 said we had somewhere around 630 vacancies. So the 26 recruitment effort that takes place in this 27 particular VITA program, I would think, would be 28 extremely valuable to the organization. 13 1 Be mindful that all of this takes place on 2 their own time. And, uh -- so I think the benefit 3 far outweighs the costs associated with the 4 eight-hour trainings that the employees receive. 5 Again, just to make a point of the 2200 6 hours of volunteer time that the Board of 7 Equalization is receiving in having these 8 individuals learn about employment with the Board of 9 Equalization, as well as prepare sales and use 10 tax -- sales tax returns. 11 The other interesting fact that we've 12 observed in the process is that, according to small 13 business administration, somewhere around 70 percent 14 of the small businesses actually earn less than 15 $56,000. Which is rather interesting and ties into 16 our numbers, which indicate somewhere around 2800 of 17 the 14,000 tax returns that are repaired -- prepared 18 are prepared for small business operators who have 19 1099 forms and have sales and use tax obligation. 20 I would imagine that these numbers are 21 consistent with any viable VITA program that exists 22 out there, not only ours, but that that would be a 23 benefit to the Board of Equalization. 24 The outreach that does occur is outreach 25 that is comparable to other outreaches that may 26 occur in other districts where the organization of 27 this activity, which is handled by the District 28 Liaison Program, where the District Liaison Program 14 1 has not been charged with revenue generation, but, 2 in fact, as a result of an agreement with the 3 Legislature during our proposal and our BCP for the 4 tax gap has been charged with education and 5 outreach. 6 And in accordance with the Memorandum of 7 Understanding between SEIU and the other labor 8 functions, that activity is not to be calculated as 9 revenue loss because they're not generating any 10 revenue. They're actually going forth and doing 11 education and outreach as charged not only by the 12 organization, but actually charged by the 13 Legislature as well. 14 So I would concur with my colleagues that 15 if they are -- is that we should encourage this 16 project. But having tax auditors and compliance 17 individuals on their -- on state time preparing the 18 tax returns, given the investment that the 19 organization has made, and the training, providing 20 some incremental resources to allow tax returns to 21 be prepared, I think would have a value -- wouldn't 22 necessarily have a value in our district because as 23 I said earlier, we have a total about 700 24 volunteers. And all the BOE volunteers, about 90 25 percent of those, they actually get certified on 26 their own time. 27 And so our need for eight hours of training 28 is not as significant as it may be in other 15 1 districts. In fact, four hours of training and 2 orientation for individuals who have not been in the 3 process is more reflective of the needs in our 4 particular district. 5 But I'm sensitive to the needs in the other 6 districts and the other employees. And so I would 7 be very supportive of that. 8 Now, isolating the VITA program from all 9 the other volunteer activities, such as the annual 10 giving program, where every year employees are 11 gathered together and time is spent -- auditors, 12 compliance, administration -- and time is spent in 13 organizing the annual giving program. Isolating 14 that, I -- I think is inappropriate. 15 I think that every district should have 16 some, um -- there are disparities that exist in one 17 district versus another, and there should be some 18 discretion as it relates to how the effort is made 19 in order to do your particular events and outreach 20 and educate your constituencies. And that should 21 fall under the general outreach budget where it 22 currently falls in our particular district. It's 23 just part of the outreach. It's not part of VITA, 24 per se. 25 Whereas in one district there may be more 26 emphasis on the core values of the Board of 27 Equalization, because of the population, because of 28 the demographics. 16 1 In another district, and particularly in 2 mine, there may be a greater inference on educating 3 poor people about the tax credits that are available 4 to them, and to the extent that that nominal 5 involvement -- and this -- and in our district, 6 again, we're fortunate that we're a little more 7 mature, that our structure, even though very 8 robust -- even though very robust, the involvement 9 of the Board of Equalization is nominal. 10 I think we project in 2017 that the actual 11 staff hours of the District Liaison would amount to 12 somewhere around $40,000. Which, in effect, in 13 comparison to the various philanthropic nonprofit 14 activity we do, food drives and things of that 15 nature, is nominal. 16 And then if you relate that to the benefit 17 of the overall program, which is the generation of 18 use tax and the recruitment of individuals, 19 volunteers, and so forth from the overall social 20 economic welfare of this program, the $18 million 21 that comes back to the state is -- is significant 22 for the state of California. 23 One might argue that that would exist 24 without the effort of the Board of Equalization, but 25 the evidence says otherwise. The evidence says that 26 $1.6 billion goes uncollected every year. Last year 27 56 -- 55,000 individuals who actually filed their 28 tax returns didn't claim the federal and state EITC. 17 1 So the evidence says to the contrary. 2 Then if you look at the Board of 3 Equalization's charge as it relates to use tax, 4 we've estimated over the years that we lose 5 somewhere around a billion dollars in use tax as a 6 result of noncompliance. 7 And so the education of individuals with 8 nominal resources to report their use tax, um, 9 resources relative to accountants, CPAs, and that 10 nature, to be able to use the tax table, even though 11 we estimate that each taxpayer that we are working 12 with is probably reporting somewhere around $10 in 13 use taxes. Not a lot of money that they have to 14 report, especially given the $56,000 in credits that 15 they offset. 16 So at the end of the day they end up with a 17 refund, but the organization has been charged by the 18 Legislature to actually do something about use tax. 19 And every year -- or in the past, we spent millions 20 of dollars on trying to educate individuals about 21 use tax, and there's no measurable return. 22 No one in the organization can actually 23 tell you that as a result of the millions of dollars 24 we spend, that use tax has gone up -- use tax 25 reporting has gone up, because it hasn't. It's 26 actually gone down. 27 The only measurable results from the 28 investment of the Board of Equalization is the VITA 18 1 program. Which we have the empirical quantitative 2 data to be able to support that it is generating -- 3 that the -- it is educating taxpayers, it is 4 generating the reporting of use tax. 5 So, um, I would be supportive of 6 Alternative 1, given the caveat of there being some 7 input from the Member, not only relative to the 8 demographics in their districts as far as the 9 data -- which shows that in LA County there are a 10 significant -- a -- a -- far more individuals who 11 have a need for this service -- but also to their 12 overall efforts and outreach in every district. 13 And -- and -- and -- and, um -- and some of 14 our districts, the issue's relative to farmers, 15 relative to the fire fee, all of that is important. 16 And so we do no outreach, whatsoever, for fire fee, 17 of any significance. We do no outreach -- very 18 little outreach to the farmer. We outreach to the 19 farm workers, but very little outreach to the 20 farmer. 21 Not to say that one is more important than 22 the other. I think both are equally important. But 23 I think the assessment is relative to the need and 24 the demands of those districts and the benefit to 25 the Board of Equalization. 26 And so -- and I think all of those 27 programs, educational programs, have a benefit to 28 the organization. 19 1 So, um, hopefully that's helpful to this 2 discussion. 3 MS. MA: Okay. Ms. Yee. 4 MS. YEE: Thank you, Madam Chair. 5 I think, Mr. Horton, you've outlined, you 6 know, just the enormous capacity and reach that we 7 can have with our education and outreach program. 8 And I want to applaud you for really, um, just 9 extending that reach beyond, obviously, the VITA 10 program in your district. 11 I guess just a couple thoughts about VITA, 12 since this is the topic that we're trying to get our 13 arms around. It is an income tax assistance 14 program, it is administered by the Internal Revenue 15 Service, which has a healthy relationship with the 16 Franchise Tax Board. 17 You know, I think with all of these 18 outreach programs, you know the goal ought to be 19 getting the maximum number of people served. It's 20 not education and outreach for education and 21 outreach sake. 22 And I'm concerned when I hear about, you 23 know, programs that kind of lose the focus on 24 numbers of people served, because it suggests to 25 me -- and I'm happy -- I -- I -- I like the numbers 26 on the volunteer capacity being built, but it also 27 suggests to me that there are still BOE resources 28 being deployed to make that happen. And I'm not 20 1 sure that there's a direct correlation in terms of 2 the benefit that we see at the end of the day and 3 having it be directly correlated to specific 4 outreach activities. 5 I can't even say that about the VITA 6 program with respect to, you know, that discrete 7 program that takes place during a certain part of 8 the year every year. You know, what strategies 9 actually work in terms of getting people served. 10 The call that I -- which is why when the 11 Franchise Tax Board, um, decided to look at how to 12 deploy its outreach dollars, it contracted with the 13 Department of Community Services and Development. 14 Because of the new Cal EITC, Earned Income Tax 15 Credit, the state Earned Income Tax Credit, we felt 16 that it was really the community-based 17 organizations, or DSC -- DS -- DCSD thought the 18 community-based organizations were the conduit to 19 the eligible claimants under the Cal EITC Program. 20 So the focus has always been "How do we 21 reach the eligible claimant population?" Which then 22 brings them in for eligibility on the federal credit 23 more than likely as well. 24 The criteria that DCSD developed for the 25 grants for outreach precluded government agencies. 26 And -- which meant BOE, other state and local 27 agencies. 28 And I'm going to reiterate this because the 21 1 biggest cry we heard from any VITA site this year 2 was: 3 One, lack of a sustained site coordinator 4 who could keep those centers open during regular 5 hours that they establish; 6 Secondly, they needed to figure out how to 7 drive eligible claimants to their site. Which I 8 think is a big job that each of us can do in our 9 districts in terms of our relationships with CBOs, 10 our being able to be invisible to different 11 communities and populations that would be part of 12 the claimant population; 13 And then, thirdly, was, um, you know, 14 really looking at not bombarding a lot of these 15 claimants with a lot of information, because there 16 tend to be new filers -- 17 MR. HORTON: Mm-hm. 18 MS. YEE: -- very unfamiliar with the tax 19 filing process. They are -- we hope that they will 20 become compliant in their own right after they've 21 had assistance filing the first year, that they will 22 assume that responsibility in subsequent years. 23 But the goal was really driving towards 24 getting the eligible population into the VITA 25 centers. And now particularly heightened because of 26 the Cal EITC program. 27 But from site after site after site, in all 28 regions of the state, the biggest cry was, We need 22 1 sustained site coordinators for these sites so we 2 can stay open. And stay open during regular hours 3 that the tax-paying public can depend on. 4 So I think we have to think about, then, 5 what is our role to facilitate that? 6 MS. FLEMING: Okay. 7 MS. YEE: And I think it's a limited role. 8 But I think it's a role certainly within our 9 education and outreach activities and program. 10 So, um -- and I'm happy, and I do want to 11 encourage our employees to be trained to be VITA 12 volunteers. It's a very satisfying experience. And 13 the knowledge is -- that you gain from doing that is 14 quite rich. And not to mention the tremendous 15 community service that employees would be providing. 16 But I do think we've got to limit the hours 17 for training. We've got to, um, allow minimum state 18 time for, you know, broad BOE outreach. Obviously 19 it's going to be incorporated in terms of what we do 20 for outreach generally. 21 MR. GAU: Mm-hm. 22 MS. YEE: And then not allowing state time 23 for the preparation of returns. 24 And -- but I hope that the goal here is 25 really to try to get the maximum number of people 26 served. 27 Under the first year of the Cal EITC 28 program, we estimated that there was a, um, 23 1 population of just about 600,000 eligible claimant 2 households. And we served relatively half of 3 that -- a little over half of that. Which isn't bad 4 for a first year of no wrap-up time. But we can do 5 better. 6 And there are hot spot -- there are -- if 7 you look at the heat map of where the eligible 8 claimant population we believe resides -- they're in 9 each of our districts -- we can really target our 10 outreach, we can work with our CBOs, that I, for 11 one, would like to see the program continue for 12 low-income working-class households. And I think 13 the only way to do that is really to stay focused on 14 how we find the eligible claimants, get them into a 15 VITA center, be sure the VITA centers have capacity 16 to stay open, and to then help the claimants not 17 only claim the state EITC but also the federal one. 18 MS. MA: Ms. Harkey. 19 MS. HARKEY: I, um -- I agree with the 20 comments that have been made thus far. I think that 21 it was our first time in the district actually 22 participating. I don't know why it'd never been 23 done, but we had a very -- we had very successful 24 operations. 25 I -- none of the people -- none of the BOE 26 staff that I know were preparing returns on state 27 time. They were training. And so we didn't get the 28 memo, I guess, and neither did they. 24 1 But, you know, I think it has a -- a -- it 2 has a value component. I receive letters and thanks 3 for the first time participating from the County of 4 Riverside Community Action Partnership. And also 5 from United Way, we participated with them. And 6 also some of the community colleges for training and 7 whatnot. 8 So we were a -- still doing training wheels 9 in our district, but I think we accomplished quite a 10 bit. We had a, you know -- a total of a, you know, 11 in our district, we -- we had total refunds of 12 $275,000. Which, you know, heretofore had been 13 de minimis. 14 So I think the, um -- the IRS people that I 15 met with at the celebratory event, as well as, you 16 know -- they asked us to show up. And so we're very 17 happy to do so. 18 The IRS, the FTB, everybody was quite happy 19 because we had not participated in our district 20 before, and they thought we added value. 21 So, you know, however we do this part, but 22 I -- I don't claim that I have as concentrated an 23 area as -- as Board Member Horton does, because he's 24 Los Angeles/Ventura, and I've got four counties very 25 spread out, large counties. 26 But the population centers, I would 27 imagine, down in San Diego and, you know, in the 28 Santa Ana/Anaheim area, as well as out in Riverside 25 1 area, we might have some real needs. 2 MR. GAU: Mm-hm. 3 MS. HARKEY: And so I would, you know -- as 4 far as our -- any -- any education and outreach to 5 make that all part of -- you know, Members need to 6 have some discretion as to what works for them. 7 MS. FLEMING: Correct. 8 MS. HARKEY: And, um, you know, I think 9 that it just kind of will depend on district to 10 district as to what's really needed. But I do 11 appreciate that maybe concentrating some of the 12 efforts in fewer facilities, you know, so that they 13 are staffed, that that makes a lot of sense. 14 And Chairman Horton -- or Chairman 15 Emeritus Horton made some very good comments with 16 the needs and -- and how to facilitate the program. 17 So Alternative 1 works for me, too, as long 18 as it's just included in overall education and 19 outreach budget. 20 MS. MA: So, similar to Ms. Harkey, we got 21 a -- a late start. We started January of 2015. I 22 think we finally moved into our offices in May of 23 2015. So we were kind of out of the loop for VITA. 24 But, you know, having worked at Ernst and 25 Whinney, and preparing tax returns since, you know, 26 I've been 22 years old, I have participated in VITA 27 over the many years. When I worked as an aid to 28 John Burton, we also promoted the VITA program 26 1 through our offices; encouraged, you know, folks to, 2 you know, partner and go, um, get their free tax 3 returns. 4 This last year we were more engaged. I 5 thought what was helpful was to have a day of 6 training for those employees who wanted to get 7 certified and be able to prepare. We did it in our 8 Oakland office, and I think we probably had like 25 9 employees come out. 10 But as far as I know, our employees -- our 11 staff did not prepare taxes on state time. So it 12 was always on the weekends. I know I went out with 13 my staff on the weekends, um, to prepare tax 14 returns. And I do think volunteers should not use 15 state time to prepare tax returns. 16 I also know that we have a lot of 17 shortfalls in the district in terms of personnel. 18 Our External Affairs Office is really, really lean 19 as well, and is trying to fill openings. 20 We're trying to deal with the vacancy and 21 the blanket issues. And we're also, you know, 22 trying to prepare for all the folks who are going to 23 retire. And I think that our focus really should be 24 on BOE's core mission. 25 The IRS, Franchise Tax Board, you know, 26 does income taxes, and we handle everything else. 27 And so our core mission is not VITA or preparing tax 28 returns, but I do agree with Ms. Yee that there is a 27 1 value. 2 We should encourage folks to participate. 3 It is -- it feels good to go out and actually help 4 people, you know, to promote the programs, but to 5 actually push people into the existing sites, and 6 those folks who are getting the $2.1 million now 7 from the state, from the Franchise Tax Board, as 8 well as the nonprofit agencies who are actually 9 doing the actual tax preparation, since that's what 10 the Franchise Tax Board is set up to do, right, is 11 income tax. 12 I agree that we don't spend enough time on 13 use taxes. You know, perhaps we should spend a 14 little more time educating folks on their 15 obligation, you know, to file use tax returns. Or 16 at least pay whatever use taxes on their state 17 income tax returns. 18 But I do, also, you know, believe that, you 19 know, our expenses should be minimal. You know, the 20 fact that we, you know, sponsor 28 VITA events in 21 2016, I think, is too much. I think it goes outside 22 of our core. 23 I'd like to see, you know, our folks focus 24 on, you know, what we need to do. Which is, you 25 know, our 35 tax and fee programs, which is what, 26 um -- what is our mission at the BOE. 27 So I'm kind of with, you know, Ms. Yee. 28 Either two or three I think is what I prefer in 28 1 terms of options. But, uh -- 2 MR. RUNNER: Let me -- let me -- my concern 3 as I look -- again, I'm -- I'm probably with 4 Alternative 2 with a couple of adjustments that I 5 would probably suggest right in a minute here. 6 But my concern with Alternative 1 is 7 Alternative 1 basically says we're gonna have staff, 8 resources, including mailing, printing, and all 9 that, engaged in VITA. 10 MS. FLEMING: Correct. 11 MR. RUNNER: I don't think that's 12 what -- I don't want that to happen. I think that 13 goes beyond what -- what it is that we should be 14 doing. 15 Alternative 2, I'm more comfortable with, 16 with a couple of adjustments. 17 One would be that the VITA training be the 18 minimum for participation for our staff. I think 19 that's the concern that Member -- or Controller Yee 20 was talking about, that we don't -- we're not 21 talking about extensive training, but we're talking 22 about the amount of training that allows them to 23 participate in the -- as a -- as a -- as a 24 certified -- right. 25 So I think that would need to be clarified, 26 that we don't have endless training. 27 And then I would also want to include there 28 that -- the last sentence is the BOE does not expend 29 1 any state funds on event-related staff time, 2 mailing, postage, printing or travel. 3 I'm okay with that, but I would -- I would 4 want to add a caveat -- or another line, not a 5 caveat. But, additionally, that each Member -- and 6 I think this is some of the conversation -- where 7 each Member would -- would be allowed a nominal 8 amount that we would use for outreach. And that 9 outreach, I think, is in two focuses. It's outreach 10 to our BOE staff to participate. 11 Because, again, I'm gonna use -- as I've 12 done in the past -- I've used the media services to 13 do outreach services to our own staff to 14 participate. And also, not only so -- so the 15 minimum -- the -- the nominal amount for outreach 16 would be for -- for staff recruiting, but also, 17 then, I believe we should also then be able to do 18 minimal outreach to participants through our 19 positions. 20 And that -- because our positions sometimes 21 gives us the ability to get into the media to do 22 public service announcements in order to direct 23 people to these centers. 24 So I think with those two caveats -- or 25 not -- with those two, kind of, additional concepts, 26 I'm kind of more comfortable with -- with -- with 27 Alternative 2. 28 So I would make a motion with -- for -- for 30 1 Alternative 2 with those -- 2 MS. FLEMING: Those adjustments? 3 MR. RUNNER: -- adjustments. 4 MR. HORTON: Madam Chair. 5 MS. MA: Mr. Horton. 6 MR. HORTON: I don't think we're saying a 7 whole lot different than what currently happens 8 in -- in -- in my district. But there is some 9 possible misconceptions here. 10 The 28 VITA sites, those are tantamount to 11 the sites that exist in every district. It's just a 12 matter of participating in the outreach and the 13 education as articulated by Member Runner to the 14 constituents and to the BOE staff to make them aware 15 of the sites. 16 So the partnership that we have with these 17 sites, we're -- we're not providing staff to set up 18 the sites. That is handled by the university. 19 Let me be clear, the -- the -- no BOE 20 employees are involved in that process, the training 21 of those employees, except for on their own time, as 22 well as the setting up and the administration of the 23 site. 24 In fact, of the entire VITA center -- VITA 25 period, tax season, we're only there for one day out 26 of -- at each -- and we refer to those as our mega 27 centers where we seek to address the constituent 28 from a wholistic perspective. 31 1 So in addition to the VITA Center, they 2 also receive access to other poverty preventing, 3 uh -- poverty preventing resources. So, um, that's 4 not the -- not the case. 5 But, um -- and it's also gratifying to hear 6 the outreach to the BOE employees and compliments to 7 the Controller who sends out a notice, I believe, to 8 all state employees. 9 The unfortunate thing is that many of our 10 state employees actually qualify for earned income 11 tax income credit. Which is another conversation 12 relative to increasing their compensation so they 13 don't have to file for -- for that. 14 MS. YEE: That's the next notice. 15 MR. HORTON: Yeah, that's the next 16 challenge before us. 17 Sustaining site coordinators, I -- I don't 18 necessarily believe that we should be involved in 19 that. And the $2.1 million that has been set aside 20 by the state, unfortunately did not allocate funding 21 for that activity. They're just basically doing 22 outreach. And, unfortunately, there isn't 23 sufficient coordination of the message as well as 24 the registration and things of -- of that nature. 25 The measuring core value of the 26 organization, I think we have to be conscious of the 27 fact that many of the programs that we administer 28 and currently spend millions of dollars on outreach 32 1 and education and coordinating events around are not 2 part of the core value of this agency. 3 In fact, they are just part of the 4 administrative value. If you take the fire fee, for 5 example. That's a legislative responsibility put on 6 the Board of Equalization. It's not part of our 7 core value. It is something that we just administer 8 and collect it. We don't handle the appeals; we 9 don't oversee it. We simply administer and collect 10 it. 11 And there are some other, I believe 18, 12 different activities that we are involved in that 13 are just not part of our core value. If they were, 14 the Legislature would have allocated funding in 15 order for us to accomplish those objectives. 16 And I'm certain the organization did not 17 perceive or anticipate that they were going to 18 absorb those costs. 19 So as we establish criteria for evaluating 20 programs, let us be conscious of the fact that that 21 criteria, it begins to establish a precedent for our 22 activities and other -- and other activities that 23 may or may not be our core value. 24 And so we go with the agency -- let me 25 reiterate for District 3, this has -- this 26 alternative, with the caveat provided by Member 27 Runner, actually fits into what we're currently 28 doing; and that is training volunteers, and having 33 1 outreach to the community and constituency, and then 2 having other programs. 3 Now, I don't think we're saying that our 4 core value is not recruiting college students for 5 employment with the Board of Equalization. I 6 certainly didn't hear us say that our core value 7 does not -- does not include encouraging and 8 teaching and training individuals how to report 9 their use tax. 10 So I would isolate those two activities, 11 and say that it seems to me that that's most 12 appropriate for the agency to be involved in and 13 engaged in. 14 Again, not necessarily for our district, 15 but as the programs and the other districts begin to 16 grow and develop and begin to serve as a -- as a 17 value on the lines of recruitment, I think it's wise 18 for the agency to just adopt that as one of their 19 recruitment philosophies, is to engage with the 20 students in the instructional aspect, and -- and the 21 overall participation. They get hands-on knowledge 22 of what it takes to be an auditor with the Board of 23 Equalization. 24 I would also encourage that we take a look 25 at incorporating use tax in the VITA program, and 26 any other program, so that that outreach to BOE 27 employees, and out -- as -- as stated by Member 28 Runner, and our constituents, includes verbiage 34 1 about use tax. 2 I mean, I think that's part of the 3 challenge is that there's an inherit philosophy that 4 use tax is not old, even though it dates back to 5 hundreds of years as far as this enactment is 6 concerned. 7 So, um -- and -- so as we -- as we begin to 8 establish this policy, let us say this, that this 9 policy not only be -- not only should be applied 10 against this program, but any other program, which 11 I -- that is not considered part of the core value 12 of the Board of Equalization. Even though I 13 fundamentally believe that part of our core value is 14 helping educate poor folks on complying with the law 15 and assisting the state of California in the 16 recapturing of federal dollars, and, uh -- excuse 17 me -- and the recruitment of students. It's the 18 fundamental point of our core value. And I think 19 there's inherent wisdom in us following that. 20 So in modifying Alternative 2, you really 21 get down to Alternative 1. But it seems to -- the 22 modification seems to lack the administrative 23 oversight, which I think should be there. 24 I still believe that the ultimate -- that 25 there should be some oversight on the administration 26 as to even those costs. 27 Again, I'm a little more liberal, because 28 in our district we have the benefit of United Way 35 1 and other nonprofits who are contributing, who are 2 part of the overall program, and would not want to 3 limit the other districts from being able to develop 4 an equally vibrant program. 5 MS. MA: Ms. Harkey. 6 MS. HARKEY: Okay. 7 Do I hear, then -- just to kind of wrap 8 this up -- Alternative 2, with the Member to be 9 allowed an amount for outreach to staff and to 10 district? That's what I heard. 11 So Alternative 2 with the Member being 12 allowed to -- allow -- outreach to staff and 13 district. 14 So it's kind of member-oriented, but it's 15 still -- 16 MR. RUNNER: Clarifying the intention. 17 MS. HARKEY: -- clarifying -- right -- 18 the -- yeah, the intention. 19 Is that what I hear? 20 MR. HORTON: Um, could you repeat that? 21 I'm sorry. 22 MS. HARKEY: Alternative 2, which is the 23 BOE's role in VITA is to allow -- is to allow 24 promoting employee participation in VITA and use 25 state time to participate in VITA training, as was 26 allowed in 2011. 27 The BOE requires employees to use their own 28 time to prepare tax returns at events sponsored by 36 1 other agencies and organizations. The BOE does not 2 expend state funds on event-related staff time, 3 mailing, postage, printing or travel. Except that 4 Member will be allowed an amount for outreach to 5 staff and -- and district constituents. 6 MR. HORTON: Well -- Madam Chair. 7 MS. HARKEY: So that's -- 8 MR. RUNNER: That's the intent of the 9 motion. 10 MS. HARKEY: That's the intent of what 11 Mr. Runner put forward. I believe that's kind of 12 what we were doing, but maybe this just puts a 13 little more constraints. 14 And I think Member Ma -- Ma was concerned 15 with staff using state time to go out and volunteer, 16 quote/unquote. 17 MR. GAU: Right. Right. 18 MS. HARKEY: And so this just kind of 19 reigns it in, kind of gets specific, minus that 20 memo, and makes it all part of the, you know, 21 subject to -- I mean, we're all elected here, and 22 we're gonna be criticized if we go outside 23 boundaries, I think. You know, so -- 24 MS. MA: Controller Yee. 25 MS. YEE: Thank you. 26 I think what I've been hearing is some 27 specified limitations with respect to VITA within 28 education and outreach. So, um -- and I -- I guess 37 1 I want to get away from referencing past policy or 2 past memos, because this is a going-forward thing. 3 And I think it'd be more clear. 4 What I'd be comfortable with, with respect 5 to Alternative 2, is really expressly stating 6 limitations with respect to the VITA program. 7 And I don't want to micro-manage it; I'll 8 leave that to Mr. Gau to determine. But I think it 9 has to be specified. It's not as open-ended as it 10 stated in Alternative 2, that we're allowing, um -- 11 or promoting employee participation in VITA and use 12 of state time to participate in training. I think 13 it's limited time for training. 14 MR. RUNNER: Right. 15 MS. YEE: And I'm saying eight hours. 16 MS. HARKEY: Eight hours. 17 MS. YEE: I think that's enough. 18 MS. HARKEY: Okay. 19 MS. YEE: Allowing minimum state time for 20 BOE outreach as it relates to VITA, because we're -- 21 do outreach on everything else. 22 MR. RUNNER: Right. 23 MS. YEE: It's a -- it's important -- 24 MR. RUNNER: You're talking about -- you're 25 talking about the last part, the additional part -- 26 MS. YEE: Right. 27 MR. RUNNER: -- of this staff -- 28 MS. YEE: Right. Right. 38 1 MR. RUNNER: Absolute -- I agree. 2 MS. YEE: And then, uh, an express 3 prohibition on allowing state time for the 4 preparation of tax returns. 5 MR. RUNNER: Right. 6 MS. YEE: And this is all, again, within 7 the education and outreach budget. 8 I think, as Mr. Horton has so stated, you 9 know, each of our districts are different. We're 10 all gonna know -- help us to connect with those in 11 our districts, whether they be CBOs or legislators 12 or others, to drive eligible claimants to the VITA 13 program. 14 And -- but I -- I think the thrust of why 15 we're even having this conversation, I believe, is 16 just to kind of put some parameters around this. 17 And I think those might be appropriate parameters. 18 MR. RUNNER: I -- I -- and those certainly 19 are within the consideration of the intention of the 20 motion. 21 MS. YEE: Okay. Thank you. 22 MS. MA: And I think you're supposed to 23 come back in January with that sort of budget. And 24 that's why we're having this conversation is to 25 provide those parameters and guidelines, that when 26 you do come back you will have some proposal. 27 MR. GAU: That's correct. It'll be part of 28 the overall education and outreach budget for the 39 1 next upcoming year. 2 MS. MA: Okay. 3 MR. HORTON: Let me share this caveat as 4 well. 5 MS. MA: Mr. Horton. 6 MR. HORTON: Members, let me encourage that 7 we look at this from an overall perspective, and -- 8 and to be wholistic in our evaluation or assessment. 9 In one district -- because as we go 10 forward, hopefully, program by program in making 11 these assessments -- and in one district there may 12 be a greater priority on a particular program, small 13 businesses -- small business starting and so forth. 14 Because you just happen to have a whole lot of new 15 businesses starting. New profit -- um -- um -- 16 nonprofit operations, and things of that nature, and 17 indicative of the programs that we currently have. 18 So in one district there may very well be a shift in 19 the overall. 20 So let me -- let me encourage that when you 21 come back, that you look at the entire outreach 22 effort. And you come back with a overall budget 23 that says -- that addresses the issue of, you know, 24 outreach and mailing as it relates to Members of the 25 Board of Equalization. 26 Let me also suggest that you differentiate 27 the outreach of the Members versus the outreach of 28 the Board of Equalization as an organization. 40 1 Wherein the outreach of the Board of Equalization as 2 an organization is dictated or developed by the 3 organization itself. It's incorporated in every 4 district, happens in every district, or -- or it 5 happens to the extent that there is a legislative 6 need or established through the legislative process 7 as it relates to outreach. And that that activity 8 is activity that all the Members are somewhat 9 participating with leadership from the relative 10 district. 11 The Board has taken somewhat of a position 12 that Members, by virtue of their elected position, 13 should have some relative discretion to be able to 14 carry out the will of the people in that -- in their 15 relative district as to what they're hearing and 16 experiencing as to what the need is and comparing 17 that to the quantitative empirical data that we 18 receive on a regular basis as to what those overall 19 needs are. 20 So the -- the -- the limitations, or the -- 21 or should be -- the boundaries that we need should 22 be placed around all of the outreach activity, and 23 particularly -- but there should be some discretion 24 within there to allow that to be managed based on a 25 needs-based assessment. 26 And so let's just hypothetically say 27 there's one set number for outreach. But in a 28 particular district, the decision is with -- in 41 1 collaboration with the executive officers, and so 2 forth, the decision is, is to focus that effort in 3 an area that be most productive for that particular 4 district, relative to the -- to the, um, input -- 5 with the input from that Member. 6 MS. MA: Ms. -- Ms. Yee. 7 MS. YEE: I'm -- um, I'm -- I'm not sure, 8 Mr. Horton, what you're saying differently. Because 9 I think that flexibility is going to exist with 10 respect to each Member being able to target the 11 resources to priority areas of need. 12 MR. HORTON: I -- I think that -- that -- 13 Madam Yee, if I may. 14 MS. YEE: Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. HORTON: I think the -- the difference 16 is, is that the -- the -- the financial, as far as 17 the outlay, the time spent, all of that, that there 18 should be some larger consideration as we begin to 19 say we need these boundaries. 20 We took a position as a Board that -- for 21 example, we took a position as a Board that we would 22 establish a blackout period during any election 23 cycle. And we went through that process, and we 24 came up with boundaries and so forth. 25 As we go forth in -- these expenditures 26 should be matched in the organization -- the 27 administrative organization should have the 28 authority to provide a level of management, a level 42 1 of oversight. 2 I've been a benefactor of input from the 3 executive team where staff has made a decision to go 4 forth with a -- a level of outreach in my district 5 that I didn't concur with, that the expenditure 6 should be there. We had the conversation. We 7 adjusted accordingly. And we were able to get 8 something that was far more practical. 9 I think that engagement is -- has a value. 10 And I think the -- I don't -- I don't necessarily 11 believe that it exists currently. It certainly 12 doesn't necessarily exist in -- in my district. 13 And if you look at the data as far as the 14 expenditures, there is no continuity in that data or 15 consistency in those expenditures. And, quite 16 frankly, there's no relative assessment as it 17 relates to core values. 18 So I think that those assessments, that 19 evaluation, should take place, and we should look at 20 this wholistic as far as all our outreach activity 21 is concerned. 22 MS. YEE: Ms. -- 23 MS. MA: Ms. Yee. 24 MS. YEE: I'm sorry to keep this going, but 25 I -- I -- I just have to say this. 26 There is an agency Education and Outreach 27 Program that cuts across all districts, right? 28 MR. GAU: Correct. Yes. 43 1 MS. YEE: And, uh -- and obviously input 2 from Members in terms of, you know, where there 3 might be some targeting that needs to be done there, 4 I think, is appropriate. 5 MR. GAU: Right. 6 MS. YEE: I'm -- I'm just going to be 7 blunt. The only reason Members even have any say 8 about an allocation is because, you know, we're 9 knowledgeable about where -- where some of the 10 greater needs are in the district. 11 MR. GAU: Correct. 12 MS. YEE: But, frankly, we've used this 13 program to elevate our own profiles in the district. 14 I've done it. I've chosen not to do it 15 after my first year, because I think it's not 16 appropriate. 17 And -- but, again, I want it to be focused 18 on getting the maximum number of people served. 19 Now, if there's a case to be made that in 20 District 3 there is more of a need -- and I think, 21 Mr. Horton, what you're alluding to is that you 22 don't want to be constrained by your allocation of 23 dollars with respect to how you meet that need. 24 And I think that's something, you know, 25 perhaps worth visiting, you know, when we get into 26 that. 27 But the other thing I'm gonna just say, 28 too, is that this agency's gotta get more innovative 44 1 about how we do outreach. And part of why I'm kind 2 of driving to looking at limiting the dollars is 3 because that will force us to do that. 4 You know, people aren't coming to events. 5 People are not, you know, doing anything that is, 6 you know, twentieth century. They're, like, doing 7 things off their phone. They're, you know, 8 doing -- they're expecting us to be able to help 9 them get into compliance with the tools that they 10 know how to use. 11 So in some ways I think this -- by -- by 12 having set allocations and if we're meeting 13 challenges relative to how we're not able to serve a 14 particular population or particular program to 15 increase compliance, that suggests to me, maybe we 16 need to think about a different way to do it. 17 And so I don't -- I don't want this to 18 be formulaic in terms of not having the flexibility 19 to look at those kinds of issues. 20 I also don't want this to become kind of a 21 program that all of the sudden becomes about, you 22 know, our own kind of political visibility and 23 exposure. Because that's not what it is. 24 But it's -- it's just gotta always be 25 focused on getting the maximum number of people 26 served. Otherwise, we don't need this. We don't 27 need this. 28 So -- which is why I'm more for, like, how 45 1 do we, like, really set parameters that kind of rein 2 in. Because until we're forced to really work with 3 limited resources, and even though we want to target 4 these so they're areas of the highest needs, there's 5 a reason there are areas of highest need, because 6 the strategies that we currently have don't work. 7 So how do we then force the conversation to 8 where we're looking at strategies that do? Maybe 9 it's about different partnerships. Maybe it's about 10 different tools. Maybe it's about, you know, 11 different ways of, you know, getting communication 12 out to these communities. 13 But, I mean, I just think that's a healthy 14 thing to look at, rather than, you know, trying to 15 keep, uh -- and I'm not suggesting you're doing 16 this, Mr. Horton, but -- 17 MR. HORTON: Mm-hm. 18 MS. YEE: -- you know, kind of this idea 19 that we're gonna conduct business as usual, and 20 knowing that there are some programs in some of our 21 districts that have, you know -- that rise to a 22 higher level of priority with respect to 23 noncompliance, that that means that we have to throw 24 more dollars at it. I think that's the worst thing 25 we can do. 26 MR. HORTON: Well -- 27 MR. RUNNER: Can I -- can I just real -- 28 I -- I think we're going back and forth -- 46 1 MR. HORTON: Let me clarify -- 2 MR. RUNNER: (Inaudible). You guys have 3 been talking. 4 MS. MA: Mr. Runner. 5 MR. RUNNER: Um, I think we're going back 6 and forth between the broader discussion of 7 outreach. 8 MS. YEE: Right. 9 MR. RUNNER: Which I think is gonna be our 10 topic for next month, and the issue that is before 11 us. 12 So, I mean, I just assume -- I think these 13 are all important issues. And certainly as that -- 14 as that -- as that outreach plan is being devised 15 right now and worked on, Members can give input now 16 and talk about that, and get that ready for us to 17 hear, then, in January. 18 I guess I'm interested for us to maybe try 19 to limit our discussions and get to conclusion on 20 this particular item. Which I think we have 21 specifically created some limitations, which I think 22 meets the -- our concerns. 23 And -- and then we can go on and address 24 the broader issues, as we come back now. Because 25 I -- I -- I just -- I -- I -- I don't want us to go 26 down a rabbit trail here and forget what we actually 27 have in front of us. Which I think we've at least 28 crafted something that I think everybody's generally 47 1 okay with. 2 And it -- and it does require us taking 3 action, because current -- our current policy is 4 pretty clear that VITA work can be done during staff 5 time. That's the current policy that's in place. 6 So it requires us to actually do something 7 in order to change the policy. And so that's why I 8 think it's important for us to move forward with a 9 motion. 10 MR. HORTON: But -- but let me clarify the 11 comment Controller Yee made, which I don't think was 12 directed towards me. 13 But, um, I do believe there should be 14 limited dollars. I mean, I believe that there 15 should be -- as it relates to Board Member 16 activities -- that there should be a set budget, a 17 set limited amount. I believe that there should be 18 set allocations. I just believe that it has to 19 be -- once you've established that, it has to be 20 managed based on a need-based assessment. 21 And -- and I do believe that that 22 need-based assessment will -- will vary relative to 23 events and activities. In some areas you're not 24 gonna have people show up. 25 In LA County, you're gonna have tons of 26 people show up. I mean, we don't have an issue. 27 Every event that we have is standing room only. And 28 the education and outreach is just immense in that 48 1 district. 2 But in -- in other areas, you -- you know, 3 I'm very supportive of another outreach effort that 4 may be equally costly, but may be necessary as a 5 result of the demographics. And some of our 6 districts are so broad, geographically, that you 7 can't do events to address all of those. You have 8 to do some -- some mailing into those -- into those 9 districts. Or you have to do some other electronics 10 or some other strategy in order to accomplish that 11 objective. 12 So let me -- let me just reiterate, which I 13 try not to do too often, but limit -- and I think 14 it's important that we give this direction to staff 15 and -- and not just have them come back with what 16 they think and then have the Members totally 17 disagree with that. 18 I mean, the concept of saying, "We're going 19 to have a limited budget," is new. And I'm 20 supportive of set allocations; I'm supportive of 21 that. 22 I think that the management of that should 23 be relative to a need-based management, and with the 24 direct input of the Members. I think the Members 25 have that responsibility. I think they're called 26 beyond the Board of Equalization, that our 27 constituents are not just taxpayers who file tax 28 returns. Our constituencies also include taxpayers 49 1 who pay the taxes. You know, they're actually -- 2 those are our constituencies. Our constituencies 3 include the employees who work for the Board of 4 Equalization. 5 So there's a much broader, from my 6 perspective -- much broader constituent base that we 7 need to be able to determine if we can reach; how to 8 reach them, and so forth. And I think that 9 direction to staff is of value. 10 And I would agree with Member Runner 11 relative to the issue before us. Although, seems to 12 me, Alternative 2 now looks a whole lot like what I 13 thought Alternative 1 looks like. But I'm good. 14 MS. HARKEY: Okay. I have to make a motion 15 for Alternative 2 with Ms. Yee's comment -- 16 MR. RUNNER: I think I already had a 17 motion. 18 MS. HARKEY: Oh, was there a motion? 19 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, we had a motion. 20 MS. MA: Okay. Mr. Gau, do you have any 21 questions? 22 MR. GAU: No, I was -- I was just going 23 to -- maybe if I verbalize back what I think the 24 motion is -- 25 MS. MA: Okay. 26 MR. GAU: -- so we have an understanding. 27 MR. RUNNER: Okay, good. 28 MR. GAU: That might help. 50 1 So what I understood Controller Yee's 2 message to be that we, uh -- we limit the training 3 to eight hours; we have minimum state time for use 4 on outreach; we have a prohibition to fill out 5 returns on state time; and that we come back with an 6 overall education and outreach budget that is 7 focused and innovative. So -- 8 MS. HARKEY: Yeah, that -- 9 MS. MA: But that's specific, right? 10 MR. RUNNER: And -- and, again, I'd 11 clarify. I think the issue of the outreach was 12 within the Member's office to talk about their own 13 recruiting, not a -- not a BOE outreach. 14 MR. GAU: Okay. That's what I need 15 clarification. 16 MR. RUNNER: That would be my intention. 17 MR. GAU: Just with respect -- with respect 18 to VITA, correct? 19 MR. RUNNER: Right. 20 Again, this -- our discussion today is 21 about VITA. 22 MR. GAU: Okay. 23 MR. RUNNER: The issue that I was concerned 24 about is limited resource for a Member's office for 25 outreach for VITA, dealing with -- with the 26 recruitment of volunteers, and also then what we may 27 do -- and, again, I gave an example -- 28 MR. GAU: Uh-huh. 51 1 MR. RUNNER: -- public service announcement 2 that we get privilege to -- to do, telling people 3 where the sites are that sometimes the United Way 4 asks us to participate in. 5 Those are the -- that's the issue of -- of 6 outreach that I'm talking about. No BOE general 7 outreach. 8 MS. YEE: I -- I think the larger 9 discussion was deferred 'til January to -- 10 MR. RUNNER: Right. 11 MS. YEE: -- bring back. 12 MR. RUNNER: Right. 13 MS. YEE: So -- 14 MR. GAU: And that's -- I just -- I 15 needed -- I needed clarification on that issue right 16 there -- 17 MR. RUNNER: Yeah. 18 MR. GAU: -- is what I needed. 19 MS. HARKEY: Well, I -- I'm not for sure. 20 I mean, I think within the Member's purview. I 21 mean, if Jerome -- if -- if Mr. Horton needs more or 22 has his all set up and he needs the outreach there, 23 fine. 24 I mean, I know we're going to be -- United 25 Domestic Workers has asked us to go out to 26 Imperial Valley and whatnot and to gen up a program 27 out there. 28 And, you know, so I might be needing some 52 1 outreach out there. But I'm not saying that this 2 is, you know -- that it's not without the use tax. 3 We have a lot of small businesses out there; a lot 4 of one- and two-man shops. 5 I mean, there's a -- there's a lot going on 6 in the small business arena that they can -- you 7 know, they can use this. You know, we've got some, 8 you know -- some very, very poor areas. And -- and 9 people that are -- are, you know, 56,000 -- there's 10 a lot under that. 11 So I -- I'm not saying, you know, I don't 12 want any outreach for this. I mean, I do. But 13 incorporated with the use tax and with other things 14 that we do. 15 We do small business seminars out there. 16 We have, you know, a couple hundred people down in 17 Imperial Valley and El Centro. That's a lot of 18 people that show up and spend all day. 19 We go out down to San Diego and we have 300 20 people in these seminars. So -- not -- not 21 necessarily for VITA, but I want to be able to 22 incorporate it where it's needed. And I know we 23 have a need in Imperial on the VITA program. We've 24 been asked to participate. 25 So I'm just -- I'm just saying that I 26 think -- I -- I think this is just getting kind of 27 blown up. I'd like to see us have some flexibility 28 as being responsible elected individuals -- 53 1 MR. RUNNER: Right. 2 MS. HARKEY: -- that will be held to 3 account but our constituents. Not by the Board 4 Members up here, but by those who elect us. I'd 5 like some freedom to do what I think is necessary in 6 my district. 7 By the same token, I don't want to be 8 paying staff to volunteer. I think training is 9 acceptable and it's useful, but volunteer is 10 volunteer. 11 And so that's where I'd like to go with it. 12 The eight hours is fine. VITA outreach, Members 13 allowed to do outreach to their staff and their 14 district constituents as needed, but it has to fall 15 under the overall outreach for the BOE. We don't 16 just outreach for VITA; we have other things maybe 17 that come into this. 18 So, um, I just -- I don't know why this 19 became such an issue. I'd like to get into the 20 weeds on that sometime and find out. 21 But, you know, this is just one little 22 program. And I don't know that it used up a ton of 23 funds. I think it was -- it was new in my district, 24 because it had not been done. But then, again, 25 San Diego, Riverside, Imperial had never really been 26 active in my district either. We've never held 27 any -- any kind of outreach out in those areas. So 28 we're finding a great -- great reception. 54 1 We work with the Legislative members as 2 well. We try very hard to incorporate everybody we 3 can when we're doing an outreach in their district. 4 You know, and we've had great success. 5 So I -- as long as it doesn't say you 6 can't, you cannot do some VITA Outreach here, I'm -- 7 I'm fine with this. 8 MR. RUNNER: Well, I -- I just want to 9 remind everybody, too, when we do those outreach 10 programs, which are really important to do, we have 11 the FTB there. 12 So the FTB is a partner with us when we 13 go -- when we do business outreach. They are there, 14 so I would expect them to be a part of their 15 program -- 16 MS. HARKEY: Right. 17 MR. RUNNER: -- would be VITA -- would be 18 outreach. 19 MS. HARKEY: Okay. 20 MR. RUNNER: So -- so as we do that, 21 they're already there in that, so it doesn't limit 22 us at all. 23 MS. HARKEY: I just want to make sure staff 24 has clarity. So when I say, "I want to do a 25 mailer," they're going, "No, you can't put that on 26 there." 27 You know, I mean -- 28 MR. GAU: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. 55 1 MS. HARKEY: I want some clarity. 2 MR. RUNNER: I think -- I think the concern 3 that I think that at least has created some of this 4 is that somehow the parameters -- without 5 parameters, the program -- it's easy for the program 6 to just grow and grow and grow. 7 And I think that's what we're trying to do 8 is put some -- put some parameters on it, which seem 9 reasonable. Certainly, I think -- and that's why I 10 think it does need to have some aspect of the Member 11 being able to do their outreach. 12 It needs -- that -- that's fine. There 13 needs to be some minimum amounts of money available 14 to do that. And I think that's the intention, uh, 15 of -- of -- of this effort. 16 MS. YEE: Yeah. 17 MR. HORTON: A point of clarification, 18 Members. I concur with Member Harkey. And -- 19 and -- and also, to some extent, to Member Runner, 20 except for the limitation place. 21 Let me -- let me make sure. I mean, PSA, 22 to develop a PSA is costly to be able to send it 23 out. I'm supportive of it, because I think it works 24 in certain areas as -- versus a mailing. 25 And, in fact, I -- there's another issue we 26 should bring up, because the mailing cost that we 27 saw on the data is kind of 10, $15,000 above the 28 market price. But we'll have that conversation 56 1 later. 2 But, um, in the recruitment -- and so 3 spending time to recruit -- recruit, um, college 4 students, I think there's value in that, you know 5 what I mean, to be able to participate in that. 6 This is not -- that's not only VITA. Spending time 7 to coordinate a use tax activity, rather -- I -- I 8 think there's a value in that. 9 And so, um, let us be clear that the 10 limitation's not just with recruiting -- doesn't 11 sound to me like the limitation is just with 12 recruiting volunteers, that there is some element of 13 outreach, and how we do that outreach in our 14 district should have some flexibility to the Member. 15 And what might be helpful is that staff 16 just develop a budget, and just bring it back so we 17 can see what these actual numbers are. Because I 18 think that's part of the challenge here is 19 there's -- there's a huge misconception -- 20 MS. HARKEY: Mm-hm. 21 MR. HORTON: -- about the VITA program, and 22 how extensive it really is relative to the Board of 23 Equalization. 24 When you do a cost-evaluated assessation 25 (phonetic), when you finally get down to it and get 26 the actual numbers, I think the Members will be 27 interestingly surprised that our VITA participation 28 is probably nominal compared to our participation in 57 1 other activities. 2 MR. RUNNER: Well, I'll be pretty specific. 3 I don't think BOE staff should be going out and 4 recruiting people on college campuses to do VITA 5 programs. I don't think that is what we do. 6 ---oOo--- 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 58 1 ---oOo--- 2 MS. YEE: I agree. 3 MR. RUNNER: Uhm, so I -- I would not want 4 a program that would allow that to take place. And 5 that's why I think actually the way the -- the way 6 the motion is limited, I think, is pretty clear. 7 Uhm, now again, if -- if within a Member's 8 office, we all have staff, if you want to decide 9 that that's a priority for your staff to go out and 10 do that, that's fine. You can do that. That's your 11 resources. 12 But I don't think we should be calling on 13 our outreach staff to send their people to -- to 14 college campuses to recruit for VITA. So that's why 15 I think the motion is pretty clear. I think it 16 creates the limitations. And then it allows the 17 staff to come back to us next month to create then 18 the amounts that -- of that limited amount that 19 budget -- that staff -- that -- that Members will 20 have within their budget to do these kind of VITA 21 outreaches, which are within the Member's office, 22 not in the BOE. 23 So again, I mean -- 24 MR. HORTON: So -- 25 MR. RUNNER: -- that's kind of where I'm 26 coming from. 27 MR. HORTON: So let's -- 28 MR. RUNNER: Just for clarification. 59 1 MR. HORTON: Let's separate it, Mr. Runner, 2 and let's say, not VITA. Let's just -- I mean, and 3 we can have this discussion -- 4 MR. RUNNER: Right. 5 MR. HORTON: -- uh -- uh, at the next 6 meeting -- 7 MR. RUNNER: Right. 8 MR. HORTON: -- when we talk about 9 outreach. But, uh, how would the Board of 10 Equalization recruit college students if they're not 11 going to go to the university at an opportunity that 12 you have to actually engage with, in our district, 13 some -- 14 MR. RUNNER: We already do that. 15 MR. HORTON: -- 560 -- 16 MR. RUNNER: We already go to recruiting. 17 We already recruit for -- for BOE and staff. We 18 already do that. 19 MR. HORTON: The -- the recruitment that 20 we're currently doing, based on the data that we 21 have, is not effective. We have 620 -- 22 MR. RUNNER: Well, again, I just as soon 23 let's stay focused on the VITA program and get this 24 thing done and not kind of bring in some other 25 issues from right and left field. 26 I think we have pretty good parameters 27 here. I think we can get this done and we can then 28 talk about how we do recruiting for BOE staff and 60 1 all that other stuff later. But I don't think it -- 2 I think it only clouds the issue that we have before 3 us. 4 MR. HORTON: Well, I'm okay with dealing 5 with this one at a time. Although I could probably 6 deal with it altogether right now. But, uh, at -- 7 but at some point we have to, just as a direction to 8 staff and discussion with the Members, at some point 9 we have to deal with the issue of recruitment. And 10 it is, um -- it would be, I think, a mistake of this 11 agency, or with Members, to say that it is not 12 important that somehow the outreach team or 13 personnel -- I don't care who they -- how you label 14 the individuals, uh, that -- that recruitment is a 15 function -- that the existing recruitment program is 16 working, it's satisfactory, it's not, um -- and that 17 having the ability to reach and engage with college 18 students who are the future of the Board of 19 Equalization, uh, in any capacity, even in a limited 20 capacity -- mindful, that recruitment activity is 21 just in two hours where you're just -- you're 22 standing in front of a hundred students, and the 23 Board of Equalization has vacancies, here's how you 24 apply, here's what the organization's all about. 25 There may be some real misconceptions about 26 what actually happens. Um -- um, the eight hours 27 that the Board wants to allow, uh, I mean allowing 28 that in our district allows us to accomplish 61 1 everything that we're saying. I'm really speaking 2 more towards having a more comprehensive program 3 that extends out to all of the districts where there 4 is a level of recruitment and there is a level of 5 engagement as it relates to use tax. But -- 6 MS. MA: And -- and perhaps -- 7 MR. HORTON: -- I'm prepared to deal with 8 that later on. 9 MS. MA: Perhaps we can talk about the 10 recruitment because I know probably every district 11 does it differently. I know we have folks who do go 12 out to the college campuses, you know, to various 13 outreach fairs. 14 MR. GAU: Right. 15 MS. MA: And the problem is not recruiting, 16 it's our pay, that are pay is too low. That people 17 come over and they're like, "Well, how much do you 18 get paid as a starting?" 19 And they're like, "This amount." 20 And they're like, "Ooh." 21 So then, um -- but we have folks that are 22 going out there trying to recruit. It's not that 23 we're not doing a good job, but maybe we need to 24 formalize a better process for recruiting or at 25 least, you know, articulate it and we can all come 26 back and see what we're all doing in our districts 27 and what works and doesn't work. 28 But until our pay is kind of commensurate 62 1 to what is out there and what people are recruiting 2 for, we're going to continue to have problems. 3 So, um, you know, I think we should just 4 focus on VITA. We can talk about, you know, 5 recruiting, perhaps at another meeting, since it 6 sounds like we are all very engaged in this and it's 7 great that all the Board Members can weigh in and, 8 you know, give you guys guidance on what we think is 9 working or not working in our districts and what we 10 should be moving forward in the future. 11 So, okay, so -- 12 MS. YEE: Member Ma, can I clarify -- 13 MS. MA: Yes. 14 MS. YEE: -- the motion? 15 MS. MA: Yes, Ms. Yee. 16 MS. YEE: So I believe, Mr. Runner, your 17 motion is to adopt Alternative 2 -- 18 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 19 MS. YEE: -- which includes the limitations 20 for the VITA program only. 21 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 22 MS. YEE: Uh, which would be limiting the 23 state time of eight hours for VITA training. 24 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 25 MS. YEE: Uh, allowing minimum state time 26 for BOE outreach and district liaison employees to 27 promote VITA. 28 MR. RUNNER: I'm sorry. What was that 63 1 part? Minimum what? 2 MS. YEE: Minimum state time for BOE 3 outreach for VITA. 4 MR. RUNNER: I -- I don't think any should 5 be out there. I mean -- 6 MS. YEE: Okay. 7 MR. RUNNER: Again, my issue is that -- 8 that it should be a budget. There should be an 9 amount for Board Members -- 10 MS. YEE: No, no. 11 MR. RUNNER: -- to do their outreach. 12 MS. YEE: Well, yeah. And then -- 13 MR. RUNNER: But I -- I -- I don't think we 14 should -- 15 MS. YEE: Okay. So you don't want to have 16 any of the BOE employees. 17 MR. RUNNER: I don't. 18 MS. YEE: Okay. I mean part of it is -- 19 MS. HARKEY: Is this part of our overall 20 outreach budget, or are we now segmenting this into 21 a separate little category? I mean VITA's not a big 22 deal. 23 MS. YEE: No, no. But we're just putting 24 limitations on VITA within the education and 25 outreach budget, uh, prohibiting state time for the 26 preparation of tax returns by employees. And none 27 of this precludes Members from having the discretion 28 to use the funds -- 64 1 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 2 MS. YEE: -- out of education and outreach 3 to promote -- for what's most appropriate in their 4 districts. 5 MR. RUNNER: Right. 6 MS. YEE: To Ms. Harkey's point. 7 So I guess on the, um, limitation on the 8 state time for BOE outreach employees and district 9 liaison outreach employees to promote VITA, uh -- I 10 mean VITA's not a core program for the BOE. 11 MR. RUNNER: Right. 12 MS. YEE: It's related to tax programs, but 13 it's not a core program of the BOE. And I'm just 14 going to say this again, there are lots of 15 activities going on in VITA. It's a little 16 schizophrenic because everybody wants their own 17 little lane to stay in. But at the end of the day, 18 we're not serving the maximum number of people, and 19 that should be the focus. 20 So I guess if there's any interest with 21 respect to VITA in this organization, I would say 22 hook up with one of the grantees with DCSD in your 23 district. Hook up with United Way. Hook up with 24 AARP. I mean there are plenty of places to connect 25 people to the VITA program without our staff having 26 to be involved with that. 27 So I'm -- I'm fine with the limitation of 28 staff. 65 1 MR. HORTON: Now, Member Yee, the 2 outreach -- 3 MR. RUNNER: Is that a second? 4 MR. HORTON: The outreach within is -- is 5 restricted to the Members. 6 MS. YEE: Member's staff. 7 MR. HORTON: Members -- 8 MS. YEE: Member's staff. 9 MR. RUNNER: Right. 10 MS. YEE: So we can do our own outreach in 11 Members' offices for VITA but not agency staff. 12 MR. RUNNER: Right. 13 MS. FLEMING: Okay, got it. 14 MR. RUNNER: Yep. 15 MS. YEE: Which we all do, I think, 16 currently. So that doesn't preclude that. 17 MR. HORTON: And -- 18 MS. MA: But as that -- as part of -- 19 MR. HORTON: -- the use of agency staff to 20 prepare -- 21 MS. YEE: No. 22 MR. HORTON: -- videos and all of that? 23 MS. YEE: I don't think that's -- I don't 24 think that's a -- well, that's -- I don't think 25 that's appropriate. It's not our program. 26 MR. HORTON: I'm not -- I'm not objecting 27 to it. I just want some clarification there that -- 28 that -- because it's almost a double negative if we 66 1 say one thing and then -- 2 MS. YEE: Well, no. I mean if -- if -- 3 that's a Member discretion issue that Ms. Harkey 4 spoke about. But in terms of there being a 5 component in our education and outreach budget for 6 our staff, outreach staff or district liaison staff 7 to promote VITA, none. 8 If it's at the Member's discretion, that 9 you believe that's necessary, then I think it's got 10 to -- but it's got to be limited. 11 I mean I think this whole thing is going to 12 be around, "Do you want to put parameters around 13 what Members believe are priorities in their 14 district?" I mean I would say it's your call, you 15 got to work within an allocation. 16 MR. HORTON: Oh, I can live with that. 17 MS. HARKEY: That's fine. As long -- as 18 long as staff is clear as to what we're actually 19 suggesting. 20 I see this bouncing back and forth. And 21 when we go and we're going to be asking for 22 something to be included, they're going to say, 23 "Well, but we don't have direction for that because 24 we're not supposed to be doing that." 25 So I think, you know, um, I appreciate the 26 limitations. I don't think any of us were doing 27 straight VITA outreach. I mean maybe on information 28 or the public information announcements and stuff 67 1 like that; still think we ought to be able to do 2 those. But if we tie those in with use tax, they're 3 part of the BOE program, I don't see that that's a 4 problem. 5 Um, but I just want to be sure that -- I 6 don't know how all this focus got on VITA, and there 7 must be something I'm not getting. But I just want 8 to be sure that when we're -- I think we're fine 9 with the program going forward as it is, and I 10 just -- I just want to be sure that we're not gonna 11 hit a hiccup that's going to affect some Member, uh, 12 inadvertently. 13 So, I'm fine with that as long as there's, 14 you know, minimum state time for BOE outreach, and 15 actually that should be Members. 16 MS. YEE: Member driven. 17 MS. HARKEY: Member driven outreach. 18 MR. RUNNER: Members's staff outreach. 19 MS. YEE: Right. 20 MS. HARKEY: Member staff BOE outreach. 21 MR. HORTON: Mm-hm. 22 MS. HARKEY: I can still do a public 23 information announcement -- 24 MR. RUNNER: Yep. 25 MS. HARKEY: -- using the Board -- 26 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 27 MR. GAU: Resource. 28 MS. HARKEY: -- uh, staff -- staff that 68 1 actually helps prepare those and send them out. I 2 could still include on a -- if I was doing mail for 3 some reason, down in Imperial, I could still include 4 the VITA outreach on that if I had that -- I mean, 5 you know. So I think it works. I'm just -- 6 MS. MA: As long as it's incorporated with 7 other things. 8 MR. RUNNER: Yeah. 9 MS. MA: I mean if you're doing a small 10 business seminar -- 11 MS. HARKEY: Well, it's always a part of 12 something. 13 MS. MA: Okay. Instead of sending, you 14 know, a separate -- 15 MS. HARKEY: Right. 16 MS. MA: -- mailer. 17 MS. HARKEY: Right. Not -- we've never 18 done, I don't think, a separate mailer on VITA. I 19 think because that's -- VITA's not a BOE program, so 20 that's how we've incorporated it. That's why I say 21 I'm not sure where the real problem is here. 22 So I'm -- I'm fine. 23 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 24 MS. YEE: Okay. 25 MS. HARKEY: Okay. There's a motion and a 26 second, right? 27 MS. YEE: Yep. 28 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 69 1 MS. MA: Motion and a second. Okay. 2 MR. RUNNER: Yes. 3 MS. MA: Do you want to take roll? 4 Okay. 5 MS. HARKEY: It's clear as mud. 6 MS. MA: Do you guys have enough guidance? 7 MR. GAU: I think we do. 8 MS. MA: Is it clear? 9 MS. FLEMING: I'm -- yeah, I'm processing, 10 yes. 11 MS. HARKEY: After an hour. 12 MS. FLEMING: Um, may I ask -- 13 MS. MA: Yes. 14 MS. FLEMING: -- that we take it away and 15 do get a chance to summarize and then report it back 16 to the Board? 17 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 18 MS. FLEMING: So that we can just clarify 19 that we've actually captured -- because there's some 20 nuances in that that, from an operational side, when 21 we're actually implementing the activity to your 22 point, to make sure that we're actually doing it, we 23 would need to be clear about, um -- and it really is 24 pertaining to what the Members are allowed to do 25 under the education and outreach and those things 26 that are -- I think we're clear on the portion where 27 there's education and outreach activities 28 VITA-specific on the BOE side. But when we're 70 1 talking about the limitation from the Members, I'm 2 not really clear on that. 3 MS. HARKEY: I don't think the Members 4 really have a limitation other than the budget. As 5 long as you're incorporating it -- 6 MS. YEE: Staying within your allocation. 7 MR. GAU: Which we will come back with as 8 part of the education and outreach budget, yeah. 9 MS. FLEMING: 2017 education and 10 outreach. 11 MS. YEE: Member's discretion, but within 12 the allocation. 13 MS. FLEMING: Okay, I'm good. 14 MS. HARKEY: Okay. 15 MR. HORTON: That works. 16 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 17 MS. HARKEY: Thank you. 18 MR. GAU: Thank you all. 19 MS. MA: Okay, thank you. 20 ---oOo--- 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 71 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, Jillian Sumner, Hearing Reporter for 8 the California State Board of Equalization certify 9 that on December 14, 2016 I recorded verbatim, in 10 shorthand, to the best of my ability, the 11 proceedings in the above-entitled hearing; that I 12 transcribed the shorthand writing into typewriting; 13 and that the preceding pages 1 through 58 14 constitute a complete and accurate transcription of 15 the shorthand writing. 16 17 Dated: December 23, 2016 18 19 20 ____________________________ 21 JILLIAN SUMNER, CSR #13619 22 Hearing Reporter 23 24 25 26 27 28 72 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, Kathleen Skidgel, Hearing Reporter for 8 the California State Board of Equalization certify 9 that on December 14, 2016 I recorded verbatim, in 10 shorthand, to the best of my ability, the 11 proceedings in the above-entitled hearing; that I 12 transcribed the shorthand writing into typewriting; 13 and that the preceding pages 59 through 71 14 constitute a complete and accurate transcription of 15 the shorthand writing. 16 17 Dated: December 19, 2016 18 19 20 ____________________________ 21 KATHLEEN SKIDGEL, CSR #9039 22 Hearing Reporter 23 24 25 26 27 28 73