1 BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF EQUALIZATION 2 450 N STREET 3 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 4 5 6 7 8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 9 NOVEMBER 30, 2016 10 11 SALES AND USE TAX APPEAL HEARING 12 APPEAL OF 13 RUBEN DIAZ GARCIA 14 NO. 520275 (UT) 15 AGAINST PROPOSED ASSESSMENT OF 16 SALES AND USE TAX 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Reported by: Jillian Sumner 28 CSR No. 13619 1 1 P R E S E N T 2 For the Board of Equalization: Fiona Ma, CPA 3 Chairwoman 4 Diane L. Harkey Vice Chair 5 Jerome E. Horton 6 Member 7 Sen. George Runner (Ret.) Member 8 Yvette Stowers 9 Appearing for Betty T. Yee, State Controller 10 (per Government Code Section 7.9) 11 Joann Richmond 12 Chief Board Proceedings 13 Division 14 For Board of Equalization Staff: Jeff Angeja 15 Tax Counsel IV Legal Department 16 17 For the Department: Kevin Smith Tax Counsel 18 Legal Department 19 Kevin Hanks Chief 20 Business Tax and Fee Department 21 Lawrence Mendel 22 Tax Counsel III Legal Department 23 For Petitioner: Joseph Mudd 24 Attorney 25 Ruben Garcia Taxpayer 26 27 ---oOo--- 28 2 1 450 N STREET 2 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 3 NOVEMBER 30, 2016 4 MS. RICHMOND: Our next item is C10, 5 Ruben Diaz Garcia. 6 Please come forward. 7 MS. MA: Give us one minute. 8 Okay. All right. 9 Mr. Angeja, please introduce the issues in 10 the case. 11 MR. ANGEJA: Madam Chair and Members, the 12 appeal before you involves responsible person 13 liability related to a corporation's purchase of an 14 aircraft. 15 And there is one unresolved issue, which is 16 whether the purchase and use of that aircraft by 17 Advanced Aviation was subject to use tax. 18 MS. MA: Okay. Thank you. 19 To the Appellants, welcome. Please 20 introduce yourself for the record, and you'll have 21 ten minutes to make your presentation, and then five 22 minutes on rebuttal. 23 MR. MUDD: Joseph Mudd, attorney at law in 24 Irvine, representing Ruben Garcia, who is also here, 25 present. 26 I will give a brief statement, Ruben will 27 give a brief statement. He'll answer a couple of 28 questions if he doesn't, in his statement, provide 3 1 them for you. 2 I represented Ruben Garcia and Advanced 3 Cleanup Technologies for several years. When the 4 assessment for this rotorcraft helicopter came up, 5 it was accompanied by an assessment of some other 6 aircraft as well. 7 Mr. Garcia asked me to look at those, and 8 he acknowledged that they had used the other 9 aircraft; they had them in California; that he would 10 owe the tax. He -- he did not challenge the 11 assessment, and he's been making payments upon the 12 tax on the other aircraft that Advance Aviation 13 owned. 14 But when he saw the helicopter, he said, 15 "Joe, there's no way that helicopter ever came to 16 California. It wasn't purchased to use in 17 California. It was strictly for use on Hurricane 18 Katrina, and that's where it stayed." 19 Hurricane Katrina occurred in late August 20 of 2005. You should have with you a brief little 21 packet. I delivered it to the fellow up front that 22 has the -- the -- the information, and a copy of the 23 conveyance where Advanced Aviation of Rancho Palos 24 Verdes acquired this helicopter in September of 25 2005. 26 The second to the last page -- no, it's 27 not, it's the fourth to the last page -- is a 28 statement from the dealer who sold this helicopter 4 1 to Advanced Aviation that indicated that the 2 helicopter, when it was purchased, was located in 3 Addison, Texas; was picked up by a pilot named 4 Mark Pike who flew the helicopter to Louisiana. 5 He says he knows it went straight to 6 Louisiana, because he talked to the pilot who told 7 him that everything was working fine when it arrived 8 in Louisiana. 9 We previously challenged this, and we 10 challenged the fact that there was no evidence that 11 this helicopter had ever come to California. 12 The -- the Board subsequently came up with 13 two items that they say are a -- proof that the 14 aircraft entered California. Those are items that 15 are attached to their documents. 16 One is a Flightwise track -- flight 17 tracking flight history. And it appears to go from 18 about May of '05 to November of '06. And I don't 19 know if that's on the end of one of the attachments 20 to the -- to the Board's documents at the end of 21 their brief. 22 One of the items shows that a visual flight 23 activity -- VFR, mean visual flight activity 24 (verbatim) -- shows that this aircraft was in 25 contact with Control Center KSCT, which is indeed in 26 Southern California, on 11/12/05. 27 Ruben Garcia will testify to you under oath 28 that that's ridiculous. It didn't go to California. 5 1 He would not have flown it or authorized it to fly 2 from Louisiana to California. It's a terribly 3 expensive aircraft to fly, and it was still used in 4 Louisiana until August of 2006. He had no reason -- 5 would not have flown it, and it did not fly there. 6 If you look at my attachments as well that 7 are under the paper-clipped item, under the last two 8 pages you'll see an item that I pulled off of the 9 Flightwise Web site. It explains a little bit what 10 Flightwise does. 11 And if you look on the second page, 12 highlighted is a statement from Flightwise -- yes, 13 it's a disclaimer. 14 "The information on Flightwise.com may not 15 be correct." 16 As a pilot, I can tell you that VFR flight 17 plans are flight plans that you file indicating 18 where you're -- that you're going to go between two 19 points and indicate a visual statement. You 20 self-report the tail number. 21 So the only explanation that I can give you 22 for this tail number having shown up in California 23 is a mistake. Ruben's testimony is adamant that it 24 did not go there. 25 If you look at all the other items on the 26 same Flightwise statement from, uh -- from the 27 Board -- and I do have it if you wish to see 28 it -- I've got the -- the K -- the flight 6 1 numbers -- but I can tell you that KZME is Memphis, 2 Tennessee; KZHU is Houston, Texas; KA80 is Atlanta; 3 KZPW -- oh, KZFW -- excuse me, that's not PW -- is 4 Fort Worth; and KZJX is Jacksonville, Florida. 5 So this aircraft, shortly before and 6 afterwards, was always in contact with flight 7 centers either in Texas or Memphis or Florida. 8 And -- and the fact that California is out there is 9 totally out of place. 10 Secondly, the Board has presented a 11 statement from the city of Los Angeles attempting to 12 tax this particular aircraft. 13 It's our contention that -- that the city 14 of Los Angeles got the information from the federal 15 registry, and this is supported by two things. 16 Advance Cleanup Technologies Inc. is -- is 17 a corporation owned by Ruben that was hired to do 18 the cleanup in Atlanta, and it worked there for over 19 a year. 20 On the aside, the company almost went out 21 of business because it took FEMA almost three years 22 to finally give him his first check. 23 But in any event, he -- at the same time, 24 he bought a boat in Louisiana with a federal 25 registry that was registered to ACTI at their 26 California address. The city of Los Angeles also 27 taxed him on that boat saying that it was located in 28 California based upon the registration. We submit 7 1 that that's what the city of Los Angeles did on this 2 aircraft. 3 Mr. Garcia says that they got the bill, 4 hired somebody to do something about it, he doesn't 5 remember who it was or what happened, but he doesn't 6 believe that Advanced Aviation ever paid any 7 property taxes on either the helicopter or the boat, 8 because they were never in Los Angeles. 9 With that, I'd like Mr. Garcia either to 10 answer questions or give his statement about this 11 helicopter. 12 MR. GARCIA: Madam Chair and Members of the 13 Board, thank you for your time today. 14 This helicopter was purchased from a 15 dealer that, uh -- the helicopter was located in 16 Texas. The dealer was located in Memphis. 17 The helicopter was purchased for one reason 18 only, and that's just to assist us in the cleanup of 19 Louisiana -- in Louisiana during Hurricane Katrina. 20 So Advanced Cleanup Technologies is my 21 company. What we do is we do environmental 22 emergency response; oil spills, chemical spills, 23 fires. And we go all over the place. 24 So it's not uncommon for us to buy a piece 25 of equipment somewhere, use it for that particular 26 cleanup, and then sell it or dispose of it after 27 that cleanup. 28 So we -- we are familiar with, uh, 8 1 aviation. We use aviation as a tool here in 2 California. We understand the rules and the 3 regulations with respect to taxes and when those 4 taxes are due. 5 With this particular helicopter, this 6 helicopter never came to California. It wasn't 7 authorized to come to California. It's not -- it's 8 not like a piece of equipment that just sits 9 somewhere, and somebody can jump in it like a 10 vehicle and just take off for the weekend. You 11 know, it's pretty well in a controlled area. So we 12 feel very confident that this thing did not come to 13 California. 14 And as Mr. Mudd mentioned, we had a similar 15 experience with 185-foot supply boat that's not in 16 question today, but I think it's worth mentioning 17 that we also received a tax bill for a 185-foot 18 supply boat during the cleanup that we purchased and 19 sold in Louisiana. So literally it was never even 20 pointed to California, and we still got a bill. 21 That one we were -- we were -- we were able 22 to resolve. This one, it's -- you know, we're here 23 today to try to resolve it. 24 This helicopter was just used for 25 shovelling people around, air monitoring, and 26 different things that we were hired to do out there 27 during the Katrina cleanup. 28 So, um, with respect to the Los Angeles tax 9 1 bill, we didn't pay that tax bill because we refuted 2 the fact that that helicopter ever came to, uh -- to 3 Los Angeles. So we have not paid the property tax 4 bill that we were invoiced for Los -- from Los 5 Angeles for the boat or the helicopter. 6 So -- and that's the end of my statement 7 today. But I'd be happy to answer any questions if 8 I can. 9 MS. MA: Okay. 10 To the Department, please introduce 11 yourself for the record, begin your presentation. 12 You have ten minutes. 13 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 14 Good morning, mid -- Chairwoman Ma and 15 Members of the Board. I'm Kevin Smith from the 16 Board's Legal Department. With me today is 17 Lawrence Mendel, also from the Legal Department, and 18 Kevin Hanks, from the Business Tax and Fee 19 Department. We'll be representing staff. 20 We concur with the Appeals Division 21 recommendation. To begin, we note that pursuant to 22 Revenue and Taxation Code Section 6829, Petitioner 23 is being held personally responsible for the 24 liabilities of Advanced Aviation, LLC. At the 25 Appeals Conference, Petitioner conceded he was the 26 responsible person. 27 Advanced Aviation, LLC was involved in Air 28 Charter Services, and purchased the aircraft at 10 1 issue on September 9th, 2005 in Addison, Texas. 2 According to documents obtained by the 3 Department, the aircraft was spotted by 4 Southern California Air Traffic Control on 5 October 12th, 2005, approximately a month after 6 Advanced Aviation's purchase. This indicates the 7 aircraft had entered California. 8 On January 1, 2006 the aircraft was 9 observed by the Los Angeles County assessors at the 10 Long Beach Airport. Later in 2006, a property tax 11 bill was sent to Advanced Aviation for the property 12 tax due on the aircraft. That property tax bill was 13 paid on October 23rd, 2006 by Advanced Aviation. 14 Under subdivision A of Revenue and Taxation 15 Code Section 6248, it is refutably presumed that an 16 aircraft was acquired for storage, use, or other 17 consumption in the state if the aircraft was 18 purchased and first functionally used outside 19 California, and was brought into California within 20 12 months from the date of purchase. 21 And as relevant here, the aircraft was 22 subject to property tax in the state during the 23 first 12 months of ownership. 24 Here, the available evidence shows that the 25 aircraft was brought into California within 26 12 months of the date of purchase, and was subject 27 to property tax for the 2006 tax year. 28 For that reason, it is rebuttably presumed 11 1 that the aircraft was required -- acquired for use 2 in California, and that use tax applies. 3 Petitioner has not provided any records 4 showing the aircraft was used in a manner that 5 rebuts a presumption that it was purchased for use 6 in California, or that it qualifies for an exemption 7 or exclusion from use tax. Therefore, Advance 8 Aviation's purchase and use of the aircraft is 9 subject to use tax. 10 Accordingly, we concur with the Appeals 11 Division recommendation. 12 Thank you. 13 MS. MA: Okay. 14 MR. MUDD: Can I rebut briefly? 15 MS. MA: Yes, five minutes. 16 MR. MUDD: It's very difficult to prove a 17 negative, especially with a helicopter. 18 One of my clients happens to be 19 HeliStream Helicopters located in Orange County, and 20 they buy and sell helicopters. And I specifically 21 went to them and said, "What can I get to prove 22 where this helicopter went?" And they said there's 23 really nothing you can get, because the pilots have 24 their own log. They don't leave it with the 25 helicopter. And they log where they come and go. 26 If it's not a commercially licensed vehicle 27 or, uh, aircraft. There's no log in it that says 28 where it went, when it went, or how many hours it 12 1 went to each place. 2 They recommended that I try to obtain 3 the -- the, um -- uh -- the maintenance log on the 4 helicopter. I was able to do that. I did find the 5 owner of the helicopter who bought it in 2006 from 6 Ruscoe Company. 7 They got -- the individuals name was 8 Weldon Clay Johnson. He's in Middleton, Texas. He 9 still owns the helicopter today. Very reluctant to 10 talk to me about anything when I mentioned the fact 11 that it had something to do with taxes. He just 12 didn't want anything to do with it. 13 But he's a rancher. And he said the 14 helicopter's never left Texas since he bought it. 15 He did provide me a copy of the maintenance log. 16 I contacted him afterwards and said, "You 17 know, I can't read this. Can you get me a better 18 copy?" 19 We have provided the Board with a copy, and 20 they acknowledged it doesn't tell us anything. I 21 didn't provide it, because you can't read it. I 22 mean -- he said it's probably been in oil or 23 something else. But it sits under the seat of the 24 helicopter, and it's unreadable. 25 I did have one item that showed that the 26 helicopter was maintained on January 8th of 2006, 27 and I have the name of the -- of the mechanic and 28 his FAA, A&P number. 13 1 I attempted to run down -- FAA couldn't 2 help me on who all of their A&P mechanics are or 3 where they're located. So I wasn't able to run down 4 the fact that this guy who -- who did the service in 5 2006, which would supposedly conform to the time 6 that it came back to California, where he's from or 7 what he's doing. 8 But -- but, uh -- but I do know his name. 9 And his name was Haberto Macina, and his A&P number 10 is 56651347. That's about all that I can tell from 11 anything related to this aircraft, except that 12 Mr. Macina, again, saw it, apparently, on 8/25/06. 13 So, um, if I was able to run him 14 down -- but I wasn't able to. And I did my best do 15 run it down. 16 But the -- the Board is welcome to these 17 maintenance logs. But as I said, for the most part 18 you can't read anything in 'em. 19 MS. MA: Okay. 20 Mr. Runner. 21 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, just a couple -- just 22 kind of -- questions here in regards to that. 23 Let me -- let me go back to the -- the 24 property tax issue with the -- with this -- with 25 the, uh -- with ally. 26 The statement from the Department was that 27 this -- this vehicle -- this -- this helicopter was 28 observed in -- at the Long Beach Airport. 14 1 MR. SMITH: Correct. 2 MR. RUNNER: Right? 3 How -- what -- tell me -- tell me how -- 4 how we know that. 5 MR. SMITH: Because the tax bill was sent 6 to the taxpayer. Which shows the, um -- it shows 7 clearly the tail number of the, um, aircraft, and 8 the address where it was -- 9 MR. RUNNER: But it says it shows, does 10 that mean a picture? 11 MR. SMITH: No, it just shows the tail 12 number. It's listed, um -- 13 MR. RUNNER: Okay. And so how do we know 14 it was observed at Long Beach? 15 MR. SMITH: Because we think we can trust 16 that the Los Angeles County Assessor observed it 17 and -- 18 MR. RUNNER: So the observe -- so in the 19 statement there from LA County, they're saying -- I 20 guess city, right? 21 MR. SMITH: Uh, county. 22 MR. RUNNER: Oh, county. 23 They're saying that they observed the 24 aircraft at Long Beach? 25 MR. SMITH: Correct. And it has the 26 airport address to the Long Beach Airport. 27 MR. RUNNER: And -- 28 MR. SMITH: And the bill was sent to him, 15 1 and he paid it. 2 MR. RUNNER: And do we have indication that 3 it, um -- the -- the taxpayer says they don't 4 believe the tax was paid. Do we have any indication 5 if the tax was paid or not? 6 MR. SMITH: We have a copy of the check 7 sent to the Los Angeles County Assessor showing that 8 the tax was paid on October 26, 2006. 9 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Let me go back to 10 taxpayer or taxpayer representative then. 11 Um, help -- help us understand that then. 12 How -- how -- if it -- if indeed you didn't think 13 the tax was paid, but you -- you shouldn't have paid 14 the tax, but then you paid it. 15 MR. GARCIA: Well, I -- I obviously don't 16 pay all the bills myself. 17 MR. RUNNER: Right. 18 MR. GARCIA: So maybe we -- maybe we -- our 19 office did pay it. I didn't think we paid it -- 20 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hm. 21 MR. GARCIA: -- or I wouldn't have 22 testified otherwise. If we did, then I don't think 23 we should have. So -- 24 MR. RUNNER: Well, hold -- let me go right 25 back. 26 Were our records available for them to see? 27 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Just -- yeah. Just to 28 be clear, we gave all this to them previously before 16 1 this hearing. 2 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Thank you. 3 MR. SMITH: So they -- they've received 4 this. 5 MR. MUDD: I'm sorry, I did not see a copy 6 of that check. 7 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Okay. Okay. 8 Go -- go ahead. 9 MR. GARCIA: Okay. So obviously if we -- 10 if my company wrote a check, I wouldn't be here 11 testifying -- 12 MR. RUNNER: Sure. I can appreciate you 13 may not be aware of every -- 14 MR. GARCIA: So -- so -- but the -- the way 15 the County Assessor works -- I just want to clear 16 that up a little bit. 17 So these guys send a bill whether you have 18 a piece of equipment or not. They would -- they 19 would have to physically go to the airport and say, 20 "I see the helicopter with that tail number -- 21 MR. RUNNER: Let me stop right there. 22 That's what they're -- that's what we 23 believe took place? 24 MR. SMITH: Correct. That they physically 25 went to the airport and observed. 26 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 27 MR. GARCIA: And all I'm saying, sir, is 28 that that's impossible, because that ship never came 17 1 to California. It was -- it was in Louisiana the 2 entire time. 3 MR. RUNNER: We're talking about the ship 4 now, not the -- 5 MR. GARCIA: Oh, the helicopter. I call it 6 a ship. I'm sorry. 7 That helicopter didn't come back here 8 because, um -- you know, it was in our control in 9 Louisiana. And we sold it there. 10 So it's impossible for that helicopter just 11 to -- I mean, if it was, like, in Arizona, or if it 12 was somewhere in Reno or something close by, I could 13 -- I could even say that -- or agree that maybe the 14 pilot came home for the weekend, or something 15 happened that I didn't know about, and could have 16 come to California for a day or two days and go then 17 go back. But it was in Louisiana. That's a long 18 ways away for a helicopter. 19 MR. RUNNER: Well, I'm a little confused 20 now. If you -- if -- again, you say it couldn't get 21 to California, but you say it could get to Arizona? 22 MR. GARCIA: Well, I'm saying it would take 23 days, you know? It's a long, uh -- what I'm saying 24 is I think I would know, or somebody in our 25 company -- 26 MR. RUNNER: Would know -- 27 MR. GARCIA: -- would have been aware that 28 that helicopter left. You know, fuel, maintenance, 18 1 pilot fees, something that we would have had to pay 2 that person. Because we would have had to pay that 3 person, that pilot. We don't have pilots in our 4 organization. We subcontract the pilots -- 5 MR. RUNNER: Sure. 6 MR. GARCIA: -- when we -- when we need 7 them. Because that's not something we do all the 8 time. 9 So it's -- that's why I'm testifying in 10 front of you today that that didn't happen. Because 11 it's impossible for that -- 12 MR. RUNNER: Where -- where -- 13 MR. GARCIA: -- ship to be here. 14 MR. RUNNER: Where was the helicopter 15 stored? 16 MR. GARCIA: It -- a airport. For the most 17 part at an airport in Louisiana. 18 MR. RUNNER: And do we have any paperwork 19 on that? I didn't -- I didn't quite see anything, 20 documentation as to the storage, where the -- where 21 the aircraft was actually stored -- 22 MR. GARCIA: Right. 23 MR. RUNNER: -- when it was not in -- 24 when -- when you would say it would not -- was not 25 in California. 26 MR. GARCIA: Right. We were working with 27 FEMA. We were under contract with FEMA at the time. 28 So it moved around quite a bit down there during the 19 1 cleanup for different -- for different needs. 2 MR. RUNNER: Right. 3 MR. GARCIA: And sometimes it would, 4 uh -- it wouldn't work at all for two weeks, and 5 sometimes it would work every single day. 6 And so, um -- you know, there's -- 7 there's -- you know, to me, it's impossible for that 8 thing to show up here. I know for sure we didn't 9 authorize it to come back to California, or that we, 10 um -- I certainly wouldn't have paid the taxes on 11 it, because I would have been totally against paying 12 taxes on something that we -- that we don't owe the 13 tax for. 14 MR. RUNNER: Right. 15 MR. GARCIA: So, um, yeah. I just -- 16 again, this same thing happened again with the -- 17 with the vessel. We were able to clear that up. 18 And in this case, we're here in front of 19 you today, so -- 20 MR. RUNNER: What's the range on this 21 helicopter? 22 MR. MUDD: Um, about 2 -- this is a 206B. 23 So I'd say about 150 miles, 160 miles, roughly. And 24 then -- 25 MR. RUNNER: So then -- in -- so that's a 26 lot of stops between Louisiana and California. 27 MR. GARCIA: Yes, sir. And that's what -- 28 that's -- that's my point, yeah. 20 1 It seems like it would -- we would know 2 that somebody took the helicopter for a few days. 3 It wouldn't just simply -- it's something you just 4 don't walk into the airfield and just take it and 5 just go for a ride, you know? 6 So I strongly believe that it just 7 didn't -- somebody just didn't take it for a week 8 without us knowing. 9 MR. RUNNER: I mean, you did have a series 10 of other aircraft that you do -- that you did 11 acknowledge were in California, and that you then 12 paid the tax -- appropriate tax on those? 13 MR. GARCIA: Yes, sir. I'm paying -- we -- 14 I'm actually paying monthly on those -- 15 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 16 MR. GARCIA: -- so, yes. And those -- 17 MR. RUNNER: How many -- how many -- how 18 many aircraft is that? 19 MR. GARCIA: We have total -- over the 20 years we probably had ten -- ten airplanes. 21 MR. RUNNER: And those are -- and you are 22 currently acknowledging the tax liability on 23 those -- 24 MR. GARCIA: Yes, sir. 25 MR. RUNNER: -- and paying those -- 26 MR. GARCIA: Yes, sir. 27 MR. RUNNER: -- to the state of California? 28 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 21 1 MR. RUNNER: This is the only one you're 2 disputing? 3 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 4 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Thank you. 5 MR. GARCIA: One -- one more thing. We're 6 not a charter company. They think we're a charter 7 company, and we're not. We're -- we're a -- an 8 emergency response provider. And in many cases -- 9 MR. RUNNER: Does that -- let me just 10 say -- does that make any difference in regards to 11 tax issues or tax liabilities -- 12 MR. SMITH: No. 13 MR. RUNNER: -- in regards to how we 14 classify it? 15 MR. SMITH: No. 16 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 17 MR. GARCIA: Okay. 18 MR. RUNNER: I just wondered if it did -- 19 MS. HARKEY: If it makes a difference -- 20 MR. RUNNER: I just didn't -- 21 MS. HARKEY: -- in the concept -- 22 MR. RUNNER: Right. 23 MS. HARKEY: -- of what the plane would be 24 used for. 25 MR. RUNNER: Yeah. Right. 26 MR. GARCIA: Yeah. I just didn't want 27 you -- 28 MR. RUNNER: Just wanted to make sure we -- 22 1 we didn't understand -- 2 MR. GARCIA: -- to think we were hire -- we 3 were for hire. And we just -- you know, people 4 would use us to move other people around. Because 5 I -- I think that lends -- lends to the argument 6 that -- 7 MR. RUNNER: Right. 8 MR. GARCIA: -- maybe it came to 9 California. 10 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Thank you. 11 MR. GARCIA: All right. Thank you. 12 MS. MA: So, um, I'm -- I'm looking at this 13 Flightwise document, and it seems like that KSCT, 14 California entry, is out of order in terms of dates. 15 I'm not sure. Everything else seems to be in order 16 chronologically except that one. 17 MS. HARKEY: Yeah. 18 MS. MA: And I'm not sure why that is. And 19 I don't know if that's typical on other 20 Flightwise -- 21 MR. SMITH: Looks like it goes from '10, 22 '12 -- 23 MR. MENDEL: There's a large gap there. 24 MR. SMITH: '10, '12 -- 25 MR. MENDEL: Because it's 11/2005, and then 26 it skips to September 2006. 27 MR. SMITH: Yeah, that -- that's what it 28 (inaudible) -- 23 1 MS. MA: Oh, okay. Okay. 2 MR. MENDEL: -- logical, it just serves a 3 large gap. 4 MS. MA: Oh, I see. 5 MR. SMITH: There's just a big gap there. 6 MS. MA: I see. There -- there's like a 7 big circle on the -- 8 MR. SMITH: Right. I know it's a little 9 bit -- 10 MS. MA: -- 2000 -- I can't see -- 2005, 11 2006 -- 12 MR. SMITH: I have -- I had a better copy 13 before, and that's 2006. 14 MS. MA: Okay. So you're saying that it 15 was spotted in California on October, or that's what 16 the LA County said? 17 MR. MENDEL: January 2006. The Flightwise 18 indicates November 2005, but the document we're 19 relying on primarily is the Assessor's Office. It's 20 January 2006. 21 MR. RUNNER: And that's when they saw it? 22 MR. MENDEL: Yes, according to their 23 records. 24 MS. MA: They spotted in January? 25 MS. STOWERS: They saw it on a holiday? 26 MS. MA: I'm sorry, what -- what's the date 27 they said they spotted it? 28 MR. SMITH: Well, they -- they -- they sent 24 1 out the bill. The -- the -- so the lien date on 2 these things is January 1st. So as of January 1st, 3 they do an inventory of -- and I don't know exactly 4 how the assessors do it, but they do a -- a 5 assessment of all aircrafts that were there on 6 January 1st, 2006. So if it was there on 7 January 1st, 2006 they would send a bill. 8 MS. MA: Now, assessor -- did they 9 actually -- okay. 10 So this is what -- did they actually 11 physically go out there and count all the planes 12 they saw? Or they just go by invoices or 13 documentation -- 14 MR. SMITH: I -- 15 MS. MA: -- that they got through the 16 various agencies? 17 MR. SMITH: And I don't -- I don't know, 18 because I don't, obviously, work for them. But I 19 assume -- I'm pretty sure they go out there and 20 actually sit and write down tail numbers. I think 21 that's their process. 22 MR. HANKS: Ms. Ma, I think that's the 23 process. I -- I -- 24 MR. SMITH: I mean -- 25 MR. HANKS: -- think that they do actually 26 visit the airports and record the tail numbers of 27 any aircraft being at that location on -- on that 28 lien date. So typically that happens at the 25 1 beginning of every year. 2 I wanted to -- to also just share that it 3 looks like helicopter 206B, looks like it has a 4 range of about 375 miles. I think there was a 5 question asked about the range for -- for flights. 6 MS. MA: Um, so, Mr. Garcia, how many 7 people work for your company? 8 MR. GARCIA: Today? 9 MS. MA: No, back then. 10 MR. GARCIA: Back then we had about 800. 11 MS. MA: 800 people? 12 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 13 MS. MA: And -- and where was your 14 headquarters? 15 MR. GARCIA: Carson, California. 16 MS. MA: And where were you physically? 17 MR. GARCIA: I was back and forth during 18 the cleanup between California and Louisiana and -- 19 and, uh, Alabama. 20 MS. MA: And so you were talking about, um, 21 if this helicopter would have left, you would have 22 known; like, how would you have known? 23 MR. GARCIA: It's a -- it's a very 24 expensive piece of equipment that does -- that 25 somebody -- I was just trying to make the analogy if 26 somebody took a pickup truck. We have 800 people, 27 people are moving equipment all over the place. 28 But with respect to a helicopter, we had 26 1 one helicopter on the job. And so it wouldn't -- 2 there's specific pilots that were authorized and 3 were hired to -- to fly that helicopter under the 4 insurance policies and so forth. 5 So it's not like a piece of equipment that 6 would just -- somebody would just jump in and take 7 off for the weekend. 8 And, um, you know, ranges can be, depending 9 on how fast you're flying, and the weather, and -- 10 and all that stuff, you know, it could be 11 300-and-something miles. 12 But still, even at 300 miles it would take 13 a long -- very long time to get to California. 14 So I just -- with all the security in 15 place, especially during the cleanup, it -- it's 16 not -- it's very unlikely that somebody could 17 just -- you know, a pilot, even if the pilot was 18 authorized to fly that airplane, would have got in 19 that helicopter and flew it to California for a few 20 days and then flew back. 21 MS. MA: But you never know. 22 MR. GARCIA: Yeah. 23 MS. MA: You never know. 24 MR. GARCIA: No, no, no -- yes. 25 MS. MA: Okay. So do you have pilot logs? 26 MR. GARCIA: Um -- uh -- yes, there would 27 have been pilot logs in the, uh -- in the aircraft. 28 There were -- 27 1 MR. MUDD: Well, no -- they don't say -- 2 the pilots keep their own logs of their own flights 3 in -- in private aircraft. And it stays with the 4 pilot; it doesn't stay with the aircraft. 5 And so we've tried to find out who those 6 pilots are. We couldn't locate who all the pilots 7 were. We found a couple of them, and one of them 8 said, "Well, I only flew a couple of times, and that 9 was when -- was sometime in summer of '06." 10 And we found another couple -- I found a 11 couple, but I couldn't put together the piecemeal. 12 We just could not come up with every pilot, so we 13 could get every logbook, so he could tell us the 14 dates and the hours that were on that aircraft when 15 he flew it. And even then it might not be a 16 complete log. I -- it's very difficult. 17 But it doesn't stay with the aircraft. The 18 only thing that stays with the aircraft is the -- is 19 the, uh, mechanic log. 20 MS. MA: Okay. And so how would the LA 21 County Assessor's Office even assess this -- 22 MR. MUDD: In the -- 23 MS. MA: -- put it on their role? 24 MS. MUDD: In the LA County Web site. And 25 it's in there. But it says, they -- they locate 26 property that they assessed, that, uh -- that 27 this -- they call this a -- a secured tax. And they 28 locate it by registration documents, by sighting of 28 1 the -- of the vehicles, and so forth. 2 The reason we gave the analogy of this boat 3 is that LA County also attempted to -- to tax him on 4 a boat that -- that was registered to their company 5 in Carson, but which never left Louisiana. But the 6 federal registration on that boat showed that 7 address. 8 The federal registration on this aircraft, 9 which is available to the LA County, shows this 10 aircraft being owned by a company in Palos Verdes, 11 California. 12 We believe that that's where they got it. 13 We don't believe they could have seen it at the -- 14 at the Long Beach Airport. 15 MS. MA: And how much is this -- was this 16 helicopter? 17 MR. MUDD: $330,000. 18 MS. MA: Okay. And did they have the right 19 amount of that cost on their roles? 20 MR. MUDD: I think LA -- I think LA County 21 said 350,000. 22 MS. MA: Um, okay. Those are my question 23 for now. 24 Ms. Harkey. 25 MR. MUDD: Yeah, it does -- on one of the 26 documents it says evaluation 350,000. 27 MS. HARKEY: So they think -- the LA County 28 thought it depreciated. 29 1 MR. MUDD: They appreciated it. 2 MS. HARKEY: Yeah. 3 MR. GARCIA: Can I just say one thing? I'm 4 sorry to interrupt. 5 I just find it so unlikely that the 6 Los Angeles County Tax Assessor is gonna be out 7 there on New Years Day -- 8 MR. RUNNER: At every airport -- 9 MR. GARCIA: -- looking at helicopters at 10 every single airport in California. 11 I mean, you know -- because we've owned 12 other aircraft. We understand how -- how this 13 operates. And that's why we pay taxes on these 14 other -- other aircraft. 15 But, you know, there's so many things here 16 that just are not pointing to the -- to something 17 that can be realistic. 18 But I do agree with you that, you know, is 19 it, you know, a possibility that somebody, you know, 20 used it and wasn't authorized? Yeah, I think 21 there's a possibility that could have happened. But 22 for it to be spotted on January 1st, that's very 23 unlikely. 24 MS. MA: Well, I mean -- but if we just go 25 by this Flightwise document, it says it was spotted 26 in California on November 12, 2005. 27 So if we don't have any evidence to dispute 28 that it was some place else on that day -- I mean, I 30 1 get that there could be mistakes and there's a 2 disclaimer. But, you know, if this -- if this 3 document, which is a third party, independent 4 evidence, um, is saying this, and you're saying it 5 could be wrong, well, we need other evidence that 6 would say this was actually in Louisiana working on 7 this site. 8 You know what I mean? You know, "this 9 pilot testified to it." And so -- yeah -- then we 10 can say sometimes there are clerical mistakes, you 11 know, on these Web sites and people who input it. 12 But absent of that, it's very hard for us to -- 13 MR. MUDD: For -- for visual flight, VFR, 14 flight plans that are flown, the center doesn't site 15 the vehicle. The control centers that are located 16 around the United States, they -- they basically say 17 they were in contact with that tail number. 18 So that's what it -- somebody filed a V -- 19 a visual flight, apparently, with that tail number, 20 and they say they were in contact with that aircraft 21 with that visual flight, with with that VFR. 22 So, you know, someone -- the reason they 23 say there could be mistakes is that someone may have 24 given the wrong tail number; somebody who may have 25 been flying this one was in a different helicopter 26 and gave a wrong tail number. It doesn't mean 27 somebody saw the tail number or saw the aircraft. 28 It doesn't even mean -- 31 1 MS. MA: Right. 2 MR. MUDD: -- it landed there. 3 MS. MA: No, I -- I understand. I 4 understand. 5 So, you know -- 6 MS. HARKEY: May I -- may I ask -- 7 MS. MA: -- mistakes do happen. But, you 8 know, unless -- I don't know if this company has a 9 reputation for, you know, mistakes on their Web 10 site. I don't know. I mean, we didn't do that 11 level of -- of research. 12 But, you know, something that would kind of 13 indicate that maybe, you know, these numbers are not 14 right, someone had a manual input error, I don't 15 know. 16 But -- Ms. Harkey. 17 MS. HARKEY: When you -- you have to -- you 18 have to file a flight plan; do you not? 19 MR. GARCIA: If you're -- if you're flying, 20 um -- some helicopters are -- are -- are equipped 21 for IFR, so instrument flight rules. When you fly 22 IFR, there's a flight plan that you have to file. 23 If you're using a helicopter in an area, 24 you just contact the tower, and you move along. So 25 you would not file a flight plan. 26 Because most -- most of the time 27 helicopters fly VFR, which is visual flight rules. 28 And so, therefore, there's no flight plan required. 32 1 But -- but it just depends on what you're 2 doing. If you're lifting, or if you're just 3 moving -- or if you're doing surveillance, or if 4 you're doing, um, you know, photo ops, depending on 5 what you're doing with the helicopter, the -- they 6 would not be -- 7 MS. HARKEY: Okay. If you were flying the 8 helicopter from out of state into California, you 9 would not need a flight plan? 10 MR. GARCIA: No. You would just go -- it 11 depends -- it depends on what you're doing. But if 12 you're just transporting the helicopter, no. You -- 13 you get what they call a Ferry Permit. 14 MS. HARKEY: Okay. Um, I have a real 15 problem, um, under -- or using the Long Beach 16 Airport siting, because I don't believe -- I mean, 17 there's -- there's tons of planes going in and out. 18 Long Beach is not that big, but it is, I think, 19 pretty good size for private. 20 And to go around and cite these 21 airplanes, I -- I would like to -- I think -- it 22 makes sense to me that this -- the reason the bill 23 was sent is because he was the registered owner at 24 his home address, or wherever. The Palos Verdes 25 address. So I think that's the reason. 26 I still, though, um -- and I understand 27 something about the helicopter and the range. And 28 so I think you have a good case for that. 33 1 We just -- we just would like to see some 2 evidence that disproves -- or, you know, like 3 something -- something that would tell me 4 where -- the contract even, and what it was doing. 5 What the -- the helicopter was doing, and things 6 like that. 7 Did you ever provide any of that? 8 How long did you own this helicopter? 9 MR. GARCIA: About 11 -- 10, 11 months. 10 MS. HARKEY: Okay. So for 10 or 11 months 11 you had a contract, and then you sold it after you 12 were through using it. And your main purpose was to 13 use it for the cleanup. 14 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 15 MS. HARKEY: You did not need to -- 16 obviously, to bring a helicopter back to California 17 for cleanup. That was not the problem. So you 18 contracted for that. 19 Did you provide a contract or any kind of 20 evidence that would prove that that's actually what 21 the helicopter was for? That it wasn't for pleasure 22 or for something -- 23 MR. GARCIA: Um, I don't remember if we 24 supplied a copy of the contract or any information 25 to the State with that. 26 MS. HARKEY: Staff, did we get anything at 27 all that verified what this helicopter's use was? 28 MR. SMITH: No. We asked multiple times 34 1 and nothing was ever provided. 2 MR. MENDEL: We didn't get any fuel 3 receipts, any -- 4 MR. HANKS: Logs, contracts -- 5 MR. MENDEL: You know, any tie-down 6 receipts, or anything like that, verifying that it 7 was, um, in Louisiana. 8 I mean, we don't necessarily dispute it was 9 there, but we have a statute that provides for a 10 presumption when assessed by the California 11 Assessor. And that's what we have. 12 And we have essentially no documents to 13 show where the helicopter was otherwise. 14 MR. HANKS: But, Ms. Harkey, the one key 15 evidence that -- that we do have is, again, the -- 16 the Los Angeles bill, but then also the check that 17 the taxpayer's company wrote to the County Assessor 18 in Los Angeles paying that tax bill. 19 So it -- it appears they haven't seen a 20 copy of that check, but we have a -- a copy of that 21 check. 22 MS. HARKEY: Yeah, I've seen -- I've seen a 23 copy of the check, too, which doesn't work in their 24 favor. But, you know, somebody is just paying tax 25 bills on a variety of equipment. They may not have 26 noticed. And I can understand that, too -- 27 MR. MENDEL: They -- they did -- 28 MS. HARKEY: -- but I'm -- I'm trying to 35 1 find out if there was anything that the taxpayer 2 provided or could provide that might help us with 3 the location of this, and kind of to prove that it 4 wasn't -- what it was used for, the time frame you 5 owned it. Which would make sense if you were doing 6 cleanup to own it a short time, dispose of it. And 7 anything at all. 8 And see, this is the conunder, (verbatim) 9 we don't have anything. It's -- you know, I'm not 10 saying I don't believe you, I just need something to 11 refute the record here. 12 MR. MUDD: We -- we attempted to find fuel 13 logs, but they have -- they bought fuel for lots of 14 different things. And that didn't -- 15 MS. HARKEY: What about the contract -- 16 MR. MUDD: -- prove anything. 17 MS. HARKEY: -- to do the cleanup? 18 MR. MUDD: Yeah, that didn't prove anything 19 because there was lots of aircraft fuel being 20 purchased, and it didn't show for what. 21 MS. HARKEY: Well, but you would have a 22 contract with the federal government for cleanup and 23 (inaudible) FEMA -- 24 MR. MUDD: Oh, yeah. I -- I didn't even 25 think about that. But there's a huge contract. It 26 was for hundreds of millions of dollars that -- that 27 ACTI had with FEMA. 28 MR. GARCIA: It would -- it would, um -- I 36 1 guess we supplied -- you know, we can supply time 2 sheets showing the -- the use of all the equipment. 3 Because it's very detailed invoicing for FEMA. I 4 think that that would help. 5 But they -- what we were asked for was fuel 6 logs. And when you first get into an incident like 7 that, it's pretty chaotic. But many times the state 8 or the federal government will supply fuel, housing, 9 you know, down to wash -- certainly wash clothes in 10 a disaster area like that was. There was absolutely 11 no resources at all. 12 So when we go -- when we go in there, we 13 have to bring our own resources in. So it wouldn't 14 be like we would go to the airport, took a little 15 while to open up and -- and start, um, you know, 16 selling fuel and -- and tie downs. So we didn't pay 17 for tie downs. 18 What we would pay -- if I had an airplane 19 here and I go to Sacramento, I would pay for a tie 20 down. And that is some, you know, evidence. 21 But over there it wasn't like that because 22 this was an emergency response and it was a 23 disaster. It took several months just to get things 24 up and going. 25 And so we would -- we would -- you know, 26 normally, when we respond to a big situation like 27 that, we're in with the National Guard, and the 28 National Guard supplies fuels, supplies lighting, 37 1 supplies meals, and things like that. 2 So I -- I think that, you know, we 3 obviously billed for this helicopter under our -- 4 under our contract. So we should be able to supply 5 those records that we, uh, billed for -- for the 6 helicopter services under transportation. So um -- 7 MS. HARKEY: Um, I'm -- I'm -- I'm almost 8 inclined -- I -- I can't refute what the Department 9 has here, but I'm almost inclined to want a 10 30/30/30, just so that they can give us 11 something, if they can bring anything, to tell us 12 the location of this vehicle. 13 Because I think we have a taxpayer here 14 that's paying -- that's paying past. We're 15 verifying by Long Beach, which may or may not be an 16 accurate verification. 17 And you're doing your job by billing for -- 18 MR. MENDEL: We also -- in their defense, 19 we don't know how long it was at Long Beach. 20 MS. HARKEY: Yeah. 21 MR. MENDEL: Any additional records would 22 be -- 23 MS. HARKEY: Would be helpful. 24 MR. MENDEL: -- helpful to thaw out the 25 case. 26 MS. HARKEY: Yeah. So I -- I think what I 27 would like -- I would like to see is the contract 28 with FEMA; some of the documentation; what was going 38 1 on; when you bought; when you sold, which would make 2 sense for short-term use. Just anything that you 3 could provide that gives our Department, these 4 gentlemen here, something to -- to hang their hat 5 on. 6 Otherwise, all they've got is Long Beach 7 and this -- and this, uh, flight tracking and 8 Flightwise. So -- 9 MR. MUDD: Our -- our -- our evidence does 10 show when it was sold. It was -- it shows it -- 11 MS. HARKEY: Okay. Well -- 12 MR. MUD: -- was bought and sold. 13 MS. HARKEY: -- you know what, I want -- I 14 want you to get a nice, neat little package together 15 of actual proof of the vehicle. 16 And -- and I don't know if I'll get a vote 17 for this, but I am going to recommend a 30/30/30, 18 um, so that you get an opportunity to provide actual 19 documents, which maybe you didn't think you -- would 20 be helpful. But I think they would be helpful just 21 in proving your case. 22 MR. RUNNER: I'll -- I'll second a 30/30/30 23 with the continuation of the hearing. 24 MS. HARKEY: Yeah, with the continuation of 25 the hearing. 26 It may be that what you bring won't help 27 you at all, and you're still stuck with the tax. 28 But I think the Department is relying on Long Beach 39 1 and this -- this, uh, flight tracking, which could 2 not be accurate. I mean, I understand that. But -- 3 and Long Beach could be just because you had a 4 billing at your home. 5 So if you can work with the Department and 6 provide more -- more -- more of substance pertaining 7 to this vehicle, what it was used for, anything at 8 all that you have of recordkeeping showing it was in 9 Louisiana and it didn't leave, would be just very, 10 very helpful. And that's really what we need. 11 I think that, you know, you -- you -- 12 you're paying your taxes, you're doing -- you know, 13 and you disputed one already. And I don't -- you 14 don't look like you're not telling the truth, we 15 just need you to prove something. 16 I need you to prove something here because 17 otherwise the Department's got the case, because 18 based on their procedures and the law. 19 MS. MA: Mr. Runner. 20 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, I -- to me, the story's 21 compelling. It makes sense. But the problem is I 22 don't have anything to hang my hat on. 23 And so I think even the simplest issues -- 24 you said you may have time sheets -- 25 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 26 MR. RUNNER: -- that may even spell out 27 some usage of maybe this particular vehicle -- this 28 particular aircraft. That would be helpful. 40 1 I am interested in the -- in -- in, I 2 believe -- I guess those hard-to-read maintenance 3 records. 4 I don't think we've -- have we seen those 5 maintenance records? 6 MR. SMITH: No. 7 MR. HANKS: No, we haven't seen that. 8 MR. RUNNER: So I think -- again, I think 9 anything that -- I get the fact that it may be hard 10 to read, but then hard to read something is better 11 than nothing. 12 And so I -- I think that you all need to 13 kind of work on -- on -- on seeing what you can help 14 provide. Because the things that are compelling to 15 me is the story, the use of the helicopter. It 16 seems to me we don't dispute that the helicopter was 17 bought, you know, down in that area; we don't 18 dispute it was sold in that area. It is compelling 19 that this is not a helicopter that goes crossed -- 20 flying cross country. 21 So those are all compelling issues to -- to 22 me. But the problem is we just don't have anything 23 to help us then -- 24 MS. HARKEY: Help us get there. 25 MR. RUNNER: -- get there as to what it was 26 even used for back there when it was used. Those 27 kind of issues. 28 So the other thing that's compelling to me 41 1 is that you are a taxpayer. You did acknowledge the 2 other vehicles that you didn't -- that you do have 3 in the state of California. You don't dispute 4 those; you pay the tax on those. 5 And so for you to just choose one of those 6 is kind of an interesting issue for me as to why is 7 it you would choose one and say, "I don't think I 8 owe on this one." 9 So I think those are the reasons why you 10 all need some time to work through that. 11 MS. MA: Okay. 12 Mr. Horton. 13 MR. HORTON: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 During this 30/30/30 period it might be 15 helpful to advise the taxpayer of, you know, the law 16 in -- as relative to the use in the state. And 17 if -- and compares to subsequent use out of state 18 once the property is brought into the state of 19 California. 20 To the Petitioner, have you considered 21 filing an appeal with the County Assessor? Even 22 though it's been paid, I don't know how long ago it 23 was paid -- 24 MR. SMITH: Do you mind if I point out that 25 he did file an appeal with the County Assessor on 26 November 30th, 2006, and then withdrew that appeal 27 on June 5th, 2008? 28 MR. HORTON: And are you aware of the 42 1 company filing the appeal and why it withdrew? 2 MR. GARCIA: No, sir. I didn't even know 3 we paid the tax. But I'll -- I'm making my notes. 4 And so as soon as I get back, I'll look into this 5 so -- 6 MR. SMITH: His -- his name is on the 7 appeal document. 8 MR. RUNNER: Well, it would be cause he's 9 the owner, not necessarily the -- 10 MR. GARCIA: I mean, I don't -- 11 MR. SMITH: Well, I -- I'm saying his name 12 was on there. 13 MR. RUNNER: Yeah. 14 MR. GARCIA: No -- I mean, if he has 15 documents, I'm not saying -- I'm not disputing that. 16 I'm just saying that I -- 17 MR. HORTON: I mean, you -- you're asking 18 for an opportunity to provide additional 19 documentation, and the Board is concurring to 20 provide you with that opportunity. 21 So these are just recommendations as to 22 even if you did file the appeal, and whatever 23 reason, withdrew the appeal because it may not have 24 been worth your while to hire the accountant and 25 fight it and so forth. I don't know the dollar 26 amounts. 27 But you made a risk-based assessment, 28 possibly, and, um -- but not aware that that appeal 43 1 process is somewhat tied into the Board of 2 Equalization's audit. And so they have testimony 3 from the County Assessor that they actually saw the 4 helicopter in California. 5 That testimony has to be disputed somehow. 6 And the best place to do that might be the County 7 Assessor. Because they, too, would have to keep 8 record as to whether or not they actually went out 9 there, and they actually saw it. 10 I mean, I'm not -- I'm not discrediting the 11 County Assessor; I'm not saying that the evidence 12 obtained by the Department is not proper evidence. 13 But if it's just a communication, and has never been 14 challenged, and no one's ever taken it to the next 15 level of verification, that may, in fact, render a 16 different decision once challenged. 17 So you may want to just consider 18 challenging, and see what the internal operations 19 within the LA County Assessors will come up with 20 once they're challenged. 21 MR. GARCIA: I'll -- I'll definitely do 22 that. Thank you for that. 23 I -- I'm not -- you know, because I don't 24 know, or because I can't truthfully answer, you 25 know, it's -- I understand that. I feel like I 26 just, you know -- I should be paying more attention, 27 obviously. 28 But we have -- there's a lot of 44 1 transactions that go on in the business, and I think 2 that our accounting department is just trying to do 3 the right thing and pay whatever taxes they think 4 seem reasonable. 5 And, uh -- so we -- I mean, this is news to 6 me that we paid it and appealed it. So that's 7 interesting. 8 But, again, we've -- we've had several 9 aircraft over the years, and we've never had a 10 situation like this where we are being accused of 11 having something here in California and not wanting 12 to pay the tax. 13 And also, just a footnote, this is the 14 least amount of tax that we would pay. So if I was 15 going to dispute something, I'd want -- I'd probably 16 be disputing something I pay a lot more money for 17 instead of just the helicopter. 18 So -- but I appreciate your -- your time 19 very much today, and thank you for your -- your 20 comments. And I'll take those under advisement and 21 follow up with the County Assessor. 22 MR. HORTON: Yeah. And if I'm not 23 mistaken, Louisiana has similar issues. So 24 you're -- you're probably right. 25 This is a big company; you're at the top of 26 the company; and so it's understandable that you're 27 not aware of all the transactions. And hopefully 28 this will give you an opportunity to kind of drill 45 1 down on it and challenge the assessor. 2 MR. GARCIA: Will do. Thank you. 3 MS. MA: Okay. So there's a motion for 4 30/30/30 by Ms. Harkey; seconded by Mr. Runner, I 5 think without objection -- 6 MR. GARCIA: To clarify, that was to 7 continue the hearing? 8 MR. RUNNER: Yes. 9 MS. HARKEY: So you understand what 10 30/30/30 -- okay. You've got 30 days to -- 11 MS. MA: Mr. Angeja -- 12 MS. HARKEY: He'll explain it to you. 13 MS. MA: -- will explain to you -- 14 MR. GARCIA: Okay. 15 MS. MA: -- what it is. 16 MR. GARCIA: Okay. I -- thank you. I 17 didn't know what it was. 18 MS. MA: Okay. Just giving you more time 19 to go get the information we've asked for and to 20 come back if you have it. 21 MR. GARCIA: Okay. 22 MS. MA: Okay. 23 MS. HARKEY: And if you paid taxes in 24 Louisiana, that might be good proof, too. 25 MR. GARCIA: Okay. Oh, yeah, definitely. 26 Okay. 27 MR. RUNNER: Yeah. 28 MS. HARKEY: There you go. Bingo. 46 1 MS. MA: Okay. Thank you. 2 Okay. Thank you all. 3 Okay. Next -- 4 MR. GARCIA: Thank you very much. 5 MS. MA: -- case. 6 Oh, thank you. 7 ---o0o--- 8 . 9 . 10 . 11 . 12 . 13 . 14 . 15 . 16 . 17 . 18 . 19 . 20 . 21 . 22 . 23 . 24 . 25 . 26 . 27 . 28 . 47 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, Jillian Sumner, Hearing Reporter for 8 the California State Board of Equalization certify 9 that on November 30, 2016 I recorded verbatim, in 10 shorthand, to the best of my ability, the 11 proceedings in the above-entitled hearing; that I 12 transcribed the shorthand writing into typewriting; 13 and that the preceding pages 1 through 47 14 constitute a complete and accurate transcription of 15 the shorthand writing. 16 17 Dated: December 13, 2016 18 19 20 ____________________________ 21 JILLIAN SUMNER, CSR #13619 22 Hearing Reporter 23 . 24 . 25 26 27 28 48